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Original poster

Why are people so defensive towards alleged rapists?

706 replies

PinkyofPie · 28/07/2016 15:40

If you're charged with a crime that goes to court, unless there's a reason to retain anonymity (such as it involves your child therefore naming you effectively names them) the press can name you if they wish to do so. Be it burglary, assault, theft or rape.

So why, every time a rapist is on trial, do people hop about saying "innocent until proven guilty" "they shouldn't be named they're tarred for life now" etc. But literally NO other crime.

A few days ago my local paper posted a picture on their FB newsfeed of 2 men on trial accused of raping a 18yo in the park. The above comments were there and even calls to "name and shame" the victim Shock and also "will she get sentenced if they're found not guilty". Perhaps because "not guilty" does not mean innocent and if the law worked that way even fewer women would report rape than there is now

One of the men accused also posted mocking both the trial and people who actually had sensible comments. I looked at his profile, which is public, and there's lots of people saying "good luck mate" for today (verdict) and memes about liars getting their comeuppance.

Today both men were unanimously found guilty by the jury in just 7 hours.

No comments so far on the post about their guilt.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why people take this attitude with rape, and only rape? The poor survivor has had to read all that sympathy for them Sad

OP posts:
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JacquettaWoodville · 21/08/2016 14:12

". If you don't have intercourse with someone well you have the opportunity to reverse that decision should circumstances change. Once sexual touching or penetration has occurred, it can't be."

Well said.

AyeAmarok · 21/08/2016 11:51

Bloody hell, a lot of totally unconnected women all seem to have some sort of evil vendetta against that poor upstanding innocent man, whose life has been totally ruined. Feminazis.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 21/08/2016 11:27

Wow, he sure has been "falsely accused" of rape quite a lot.

Very unlucky indeed...

Original poster
PinkyofPie · 21/08/2016 11:05

Toads here's the details of the accusations - but yeah, those women are all scheming liars, and he's a victim of injustice Hmm

In October 2002, it emerged that Ulrika Jonsson had written in her autobiography, Honest, that "an acquaintance" had raped her when she was 19. It became known that the man was a TV presenter after comments by Jonathan Ross on his chat show.[14] Amid media speculation, television presenter Matthew Wright accidentally disclosed on The Wright Stuff that Leslie was the alleged perpetrator.[15] Jonsson has never said whether the correct person was named.[16][17]

Shortly afterwards, other women made accusations of indecent assault against Leslie, and he was arrested in December 2002 on one count of rape and two concerning indecent assault, and released on bail after being interviewed by the police.[18] Leslie was charged in June 2003 with assaulting a woman twice between 25 and 28 May 1997.[19] He was never charged for offences against Jonsson.[20] The prosecution dropped the charges against Leslie at Southwark Crown Court on 31 July 2003 after new information from the alleged victim.[21] On the court steps after he was cleared, Leslie said that he had "been to hell and back" and that he had "maintained [his] innocence throughout".[21]

In January 2006 Leslie was interviewed for the BBC series My Childhood in which he analysed his childhood memories with psychiatrist Linda Treliving. In the programme Leslie admitted that he "had never learnt how to treat women with respect" and "never learnt how to chat up women", admitting that he abused drugs, but claiming he did so as a result of childhood trauma. Shortly afterwards in an interview with The Independent he repeated this version of events, admitting "my behaviour was at times inappropriate".[2][22]

On 23 June 2008 British media reported that Leslie had again been arrested in relation to an alleged rape that happened in November 1995.[23] Again, no charges were brought.[24]

Speaking on ITV's Daybreak programme in early 2013, Leslie recounted the events subsequent to the allegations being made and said that he had contemplated suicide.[25]

In November 2015 Leslie was suspended from his job on Radio Forth while police investigated claims he sexually assaulted a 22-year-old woman following a radio awards ceremony. A Police Scotland spokeswoman said: 'Police in Edinburgh are investigating a report of a sexual assault of a 22-year-old woman, which took place between the evening of Thursday 19 November and the morning of Friday 20 November in Edinburgh'. The investigation into this allegation was however dropped on 14 February 2016.[26][27][28][29][30][31]

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ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 21/08/2016 10:51

John Leslie has been both arrested (with no charges eventually being brought) and also charged with sexual offences and rape, several times in his life, over several decades.

And people still believe he is innocent?

Wow.

Original poster
PinkyofPie · 21/08/2016 01:37

Toads John Leslie has been both arrested (with no charges eventually being brought) and also charged with sexual offences and rape, several times in his life, over several decades.

I agree it's not the best example of someone who has been 'wronged'

user see the picture kind put up. Also a rape allegation could carry a stigma, however it's the only offence I know of that has people in its droves protesting the accused' innocence.

A man aged 92 in my town was attacked the other day by two young men. A terrible crime, and I have not seen a single person questioning his accusation. Only ever when women accuse men of rape does that happen

OP posts:
ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 20/08/2016 21:26

even if charges are dropped or if a not-guilty verdict is delivered.

Charges being dropped or a not guilty verdict does not mean the accusations were false.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 20/08/2016 21:24

Hasn't John Leslie been accused of rape by more than one woman?

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky · 20/08/2016 21:22

Hasn't John Leslie being accused of rape by more than one woman?

Xenophile · 20/08/2016 20:52

If you honestly think that John Leslie is a good example of men who's lives have been ruined by a rape allegation, then you really have no understanding of his downfall at all.

Most men who are accused of rape are able to carry on their jobs, their lives and everything else when the allegation is no crimed, dropped or they are found not guilty.

KindDogsTail · 20/08/2016 20:43

No harm in putting this back again, just as a reminder, even though, yes, it must be terrible to be falsely accused of rape.

Why are people so defensive towards alleged rapists?
KindDogsTail · 20/08/2016 20:39

BestoftheBest
A somewhat drunk but not incoherent woman invited me to bed and proceeded to remove her clothes. I was worried the drunkenness meant she wouldn't have made the same choices if sober, plus she seemed to lack a certain joy, a certain warmth and happiness which I had thought might be present

You were so right, even in that apparently grey situation, to know the difference. If only more people like you would explain to boys and young men. Apart from anything, sensitivity to the other, like you described, is the way to real relationships, and to sex with a feeling of connection to the other person.

A lot rapes though are not even through drunkeness, but a sort of pushing on, maybe even after the woman says no. Afterwards the woman feels responsible for having consented to any initial petting or so on in the first place.

Bestofthebest · 20/08/2016 20:19

I think there is a tendency to give disproportionate weight to false accusations. I don't think they are as common as some would have you believe. Far more common is unreported rapes or those that the CPS doesn't put to court. I know 2 women who told me they were raped when younger and there may be others among my own circle. The only sure fire way to ensure no one is ever raped or sexually assaulted is to suspend all sexual contact which clearly won't happen.There are probably a significant number of people who are out there who are rapists but don't know it, in other words they didn't establish consent or ignored the withdrawal of it. I could have been a rapist in one situation. A somewhat drunk but not incoherent woman invited me to bed and proceeded to remove her clothes. I was worried the drunkenness meant she wouldn't have made the same choices if sober, plus she seemed to lack a certain joy, a certain warmth and happiness which I had thought might be present. For these reasons I did not do anything beyond kissing and talking. Having reassured her I found her attractive but would prefer to talk it over the next day, we both went to sleep. The next day she came out with a stream of consciousness about certain things that were in her head at the time which, had I proceeded with intercourse would have made me very regretful. The undeniable and tbh difficult but fleeting frustration I experienced was as nothing compared to what we would both have felt if things had worked out differently. If you don't have intercourse with someone well you have the opportunity to reverse that decision should circumstances change. Once sexual touching or penetration has occurred, it can't be.

user1471707421 · 20/08/2016 17:01

answer to OP: the stigma attached to anyone accused of rape is extremely high and much (or most or all) of it remains even if charges are dropped or if a not-guilty verdict is delivered.

This stigma can destroy the accused's life.

user1471707421 · 20/08/2016 16:59

"I wonder how many people are booking Cliff Richard for gigs these days..."

And I wonder how many TV offers John Leslie is getting these days? He was accused but never found guilty of anything.

mimishimmi · 04/08/2016 01:52

I think it's because people would rather gang up with the same class of person than accept that they have members who do grievous things. So if a young girl is molested by an upper class guy, upper class women will often justify it by choosing to believe she was probably a slut who was leading him on. If it's a lower class guy, the women will defend him saying he's led a deprived life. I was molested at eight by a 19 year old - even though my parents took it to the police nothing happened because his father, my own found out years later, was a very well-off, influential pedophile. These are the same sort who keep sending us off to all these horrible wars in the name of saving Western civilization Sad

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 04/08/2016 01:19

It is always for the Crown to prove its case beyond all reasonable doubt in any criminal case.

In your stolen ipad situation a defence could be put that it was a gift and it would be for the jury to assess if that were credible in the circumstances. In most cases it will not be.

An accused person does not even have to give evidence beyond stating their plea. I can't remember what the current position is on the inferences which a jury may make of that, but it is for the judge to direct the jury.

In a rape trial the Crown has a number of scenarios to prove. The defence case may simply be the accused is not the person who committed the offence ; or that there is no doubt as to identity but that nothing happened at all ; or there is no doubt as to identity and that something happened but the doubt is about the consent.

If it is the latter then the current law is the defendant has the responsibility to ensure that the other person consents to the sexual activity. The police should ask the offender what steps (s)he took to satisfy him or herself that the person consented in order to show his or her state of mind at the time.

The test of reasonable belief is a subjective test an an objective one.

Did the defendant believe the complainant consented? This relates to his or her personal capacity to evaluate consent (the subjective element of the test).
If so, did the defendant reasonably believe it? It will be for the jury to decide if his or her belief was reasonable (the objective element)

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 04/08/2016 00:56

ChocChocPorridge Mon 01-Aug-16 16:25:13
I want the burden to be on the man to prove that he had consent, not on the woman to make the jury prove beyond doubt that he didn't.

And that is exactly what it would boil down to. Guilty unless he can prove the unprovable - that he had consent. Impossible to prove because that kind of proof doesn't exist. It would never exist, in any possible world, unless a bloke hit the jack pot and some passing windowcleaner or hotel worker happened to overhear consent being given. We do not live in a culture where it is expected that you sign anything before having sex. Therefore there is no 'proof'. Saying that a man will go to jail unless he can prove the unproveable, is exactly what it seems. You know this would be impossible for any man, guilty or innocent. You know some of the men faced with this task would be innocent, and, unable to do something that is impossible, would go to jail. You know that no jury in the country would be able to pass a 'not guilty' verdict on a crime under these conditions because the evidence they would need to see simply doesn't exist. And you don't care.

That's not the way feminists should act. After centuries of being oppressed by men who didn't understand us, we should have learnt something. That life doesn't work when it's not fair. That we are better than this. That it is hell to live in a system set up to bring you down and no one deserves it. We should aim higher. Who gives a flying fuck where our allegiances lie? We're all better than this. We all want a better world for our sons as well as our daughters. As well as not allowing ourselves to be backed into a corner, let's also not set anyone up in position that is doomed. Let's not be so hypocritical and self-serving that we yearn for this kind of 'fair trial' when we know it's nothing of the sort.

venusinscorpio · 03/08/2016 23:37

If a person is found with someone's reportedly stolen iPad, doesn't deny having it or that they have taken it but says the other person said they could take it. That explanation would be accepted without any proof would it, even when the person they stole it from says that wasn't how it happened?

cadnowyllt · 03/08/2016 23:27

Burden of proof falls upon the prosecution.

HapShawl · 03/08/2016 23:22

I wouldn't bother felas, he treats threads about rape in FWR as entertainment and seems to think it's normal behaviour

Felascloak · 03/08/2016 22:46

Wtf cadno?!!

cadnowyllt · 03/08/2016 22:44

Choc great post - although, you are completely misinformed - other than that technicality, very well done.

Felascloak · 03/08/2016 22:38

Another great post chocchoc
joe I'm sorry about your friend Flowers

Original poster
PinkyofPie · 03/08/2016 22:22

I think your last post choc has hit the nail on the head! We don't want rape or rapists to be special cases - just treated with the same attitude that it's up to the accused to prove he did nothing wrong, not the victim!

OP posts: