What Makes A Woman?

Can someone tweet Jack and ask her if she forgot about us over here? Maybe just say the MN thread though so it doesn't bring all the MRAs and TA over to Feminist theory though.

That link is so sad.

for Jack

True. But are women not interested in the point? Just me?

Most of us who answered know that a woman is an adult human female and a man is an adult human male. Unless someone comes along saying otherwise there isn't really a conversation to be had. (I've not checked that thread since yesterday so maybe a conversation has been had now.)

True. But are women not interested in the point? Just me?

people did answer seriously but in keeping with the nature of Mn in general you also got tongue in cheek answers.

The truth is while I believe penis and xy genetics make a male I don't really care about the situation. It's not my issue. If a Tm has ever raped or sexually assaulted an actual male I'd be fucking stunned. Men aren't in danger.

My annoyance about tm is the way an infinitesimally small number have started to say their being able to breastfeed means that bf is no longer a female issue. But on the whole my concern is female spaces. Let men for once be in change of their own shit. That is not the problem of feminism. Actually for that reason I'm not even sure it belongs in feminist theory. I empathize with male issues but my feminism is not about them.

Bertrand It might be in part because many people don't explicitly check the feminist theory board as regularly as (say) feminist chat.

I don't, usually. I only spotted this thread because it came up in active.

I do think that's very telling. Trans men, having being socialised as women, aren't declaring all references to men and male biology to be transphobic. Nobody is suggesting the categories of 'Women' and 'Not-Women' to classify speakers at a political event. Men are the default.

True. But are women not interested in the point? Just me?

It's probably because it's a companion thread and not started by a 'celeb' of sorts. So people aren't taking it as seriously.

1. No, because blokes are never meant to do anything they can't be arsed to do.

see: turning the women's restrooms and not men's in to "all gender" spaces. And people now saying 'Men and non men'.

1. A thread in feminist theory on a site entitled "mumsnet" is unlikely to get loads of males answering and as women aren't in the business of telling men how they should define their sex it will be mostly quiet.

I find it fascinating that the companion thread I started- What Makes a Man?- has had very few serious answers. Are men not supposed to be questioning their gender identities and being prepared to step aside to make room for people who identify as male?

Yes, it is the course Buffy mentioned.

How much you interact on it is up to you, and they have everyone from high school students to doctors on aid projects on the course message boards, so you don't have to worry about having any particular skill or knowledge.

Jack- if you simply want to hear the views of other women because you are still confused and you want to engage with some viewpoints you might not have thought of or heard, then why aren't you simply entering into debates anonymously? There's something a bit patronising and unpleasant and user-y about all this that I am finding distasteful tbh.

In terms of genetics, it's someone without a Y chromosome. So women with Turners (single X chromosome) and men with Kleinfelters - XXY.

Or women with XY BUT without androgen receptors - Congenital adrenal hyperplasia.

Is this the same course somebody (possibly Buffy) mentioned about a year ago do you know? If so, I wanted to join then but was too scared I'd be rubbish. I feel a lot more confident now. Thanks for sharing the link.

That's great. Thank you almond.

This trans person speaks some sense. They know surgery hasn't made them into a woman.

Here is an American example:

www.huffingtonpost.com/jess-coleman/stop-calling-yourself-socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative_b_7155550.html

I mean that many young people are progressive on social issues but right wing on economic issues. They might claim to support feminism and racial equality movements, but they don't support working class people and do not address the way that poverty is a major component of sexism and racism.

There have been surveys on this, and if I remember any links I will post them or PM you.

A separate international note, this free online course is about to open again in a few days, International women's health and human rights:

lagunita.stanford.edu/courses/course-v1:GlobalHealth+IntWomensHealth+August2016/about

You don't have to do the work, and it gives you access to a message board with feminists all over the world, and all the course reading and videos. And it does focus on women and girls!

And a really big one is the economic situation of women in general and austerity in particular. Jack is talking about and campaigning about that in a time when many 'liberals' have decoupled social and economic justice.

I agree Jack has done some fantastic work here. I think she is a great woman in lots of ways. I wish she felt proud to be on our team, iykwim. Women put up with a lot of crap but we can be incredibly tough and strong in spite of it all.

I'm interested in what you mean about liberals decoupling social and economic justice. Can you elaborate or recommend anything I can read?

By the reviled and no platformed, I meant feminists, in case that wasn't clear!

I have also thought that, WH, because she mis represented MN threads before, and although she has said that was due to the interviewer, in her earlier article it was an opinion piece written by her.

But I'm still taking her decision to come on here and start threads in good faith.

I don't believe she is going to come on here and agree. Even if she did agree would be targeted by trans activists and it would destroy her credibility.

And while hatred of women's bodies and abuse through their reproductive systems is a major issue that is being effectively shut down by trans activists redefining women, there are other ignored feminist issues.

And a really big one is the economic situation of women in general and austerity in particular. Jack is talking about and campaigning about that in a time when many 'liberals' have decoupled social and economic justice. The same is true for Owen Jones. So I'd rather she was able to keep on doing that, rather than end up among the reviled and no platformed.

As for her personal situation, she should do what she personally has to do to get through all the bullshit of a sexist world. We all have survival strategies and there's no shame in it. But feminism is about making things better for women; it isn't about validating our own survival strategies.

Hope you get it sorted Jack.

Her twitter feed shows she's having problems with her credit rating and mortgage application, so I imagine that is keeping her busy (and pissed)

The cynical part of me wonders if there was an ulterior motive for starting both threads but I hope that isn't the case.