What Makes A Woman?

Flora that's a great meme. It raises a good point. A lot of people confuse sex and gender. Male and female are purely biological descriptors while masculine and feminine are gender descriptors which assign damaging and reductive qualities to the aforementioned sex classes. Let's get rid of the words Male and Female and rename them Tables and Chairs. Tables have penises and produce sperm to fertilise eggs and produce young. Chairs have a uterus, vagina and other genitalia specific to growing and birthing young. Even if they have abnormalities or variations, they are still fundamentally Tables (Male) or Chairs (Female).

Males and Females may 'feel' masculine or feminine or feel nothing at all - just 'feeling like themselves' (I think this is probably true of most people). Society dictates that we should fall into the categories of masculine or feminine in order to maintain the patriarchal status quo. Many reject this. It makes not a jot of difference to whether they are fundamentally Male or Female though.

Jack however you identify or feel internally, your biology is female and always will be, the same for trans women - they will always be biologically male. They are living as women. They are not actually women. So, no, Danielle Muscato is not a woman. He is not actually even living as a woman (whatever that means. I suppose it means that he is not 'performing' femininity). He appears to be a man with a feminine name.

Actually I couldn't give a hoot who lives as what if they are happy and safe, as long as women's rights and the meaning * of womanhood aren't erased in the process.

The definition of 'woman' matters.

It is not 'tricky' to define what a woman is. A woman is an adult human female; a female has the capability to produce eggs and bear young.

And it's disingenuous to say you were told you weren't welcome in women's spaces - you were asked if you think you should still have access to women's spaces and collect women's awards if you don't categorise yourself as a woman.

Kitty. Never Google.

Anyway, not supposed to be going off track, are we. Sorry :)

But we can change fgm so it's less 'cissexist' and call it genital mutilation. But to do so means we ignore why these girls are being cut.

Kitty, Stephonknee has advised the Canadian government on trans issues...

FruitCider

A woman is anyone that identifies as a woman, surely?

... and what is this 'woman' that anyone can identify as?

Is a goth anyone who identifies as a goth?

Is a mare anypony that identifies as a mare?

Is a brunette anyone who identifies as a brunette?

Didn't know who Stephonknee was.
Googled it.
Now I need a shower as that was beyond grim.

Today, FGM contains the word female and that assumes that all females have the kit necessary to be persecuted under FGM.
I won't even comment on what I think of this, I think it speaks for itself.

SwissWank, I agree with you. The be-penised and bearded Alex Drummond and 'Danielle' Muscato are making a mockery of the word woman. Does 'woman' mean anything men decide it to mean?? They can dress, behave, express themselves etc however they want. But they are men and nothing will ever change that. Their demanding to be allowed access to women's spaces etc is offensive and dangerous. As for the creepy clusterfuck that is Stephonknee... I have no words.

FGM

What is the argument for FMG being cissexist? WTF?

WOMAN is not an 'identity'. It is a biological reality. Anyone with female anatomy (whether normal & functioning or not) and an XX chromosome is a woman. Simple.

Yes, I 've seen people say fgm is cissexist. I mean fuck that shit fuck it sideways

Adult human female

I'd much rather 'woman' be a short cut word female with a vagina, uterus and xx genes and find it far less offensive than it meaning I have some sort of 'lady brain'.

I don't think we can scrap the labels while women and girls are being harmed as a result of being female. If we don't have the language to describe who is being harmed and who is doing the harming, we will not be able to solve the problems. It's not the labels that are the problem.

All of the other usual examples are less blatant, but is Danielle Muscato a woman? And why?

What do you think of Alex Drummond 'expanding the bandwidth of being a woman' or Danielle Muscato or StefOnKnee Wolsht? These are all activists and I think they are destroying the word woman personally and putting us in harms way.

Agree with pp- a human adult of the sex class that produces eggs. So purely biological.

Firstly - to any screenshotting journalists - fuck off to the far side of fuck and then when you get there fuck off some more.

I have no idea about what makes a woman as it is all too confusing and I don't care enough, in that people are just PEOPLE and couldn't we just scrap all the labels. Also I can't think about it too long before the Shania Twain looping inside my heard drives me mad. Live and let live. (excluding Daily Mail losers) Jack you seem like a really nice person and its so nice that you came on to mumsnet and did this. I hope the bastards don't get you down.

In the last week or so on MN I've read about this, I've read the Turkey stuff, and the mitochondrial DNA thread and I have to say MN rocks and we are so lucky to have this place.

Agree that it is purely biology.

I use a wheelchair. That doesn't mean humans can't walk, or that I am not human as I cannot walk.

Incidentally, have you read the opinions of the intersex "community" of being co-opted into the trans debate?

Jack do you see why I find it offensive when transwomen say they knew they were female from the start because they like dresses and dolls playing with the girls?

Yes, I think they're pointing out an inconsistency: you don't think you're a woman so it's not very consistent to still consider yourself eligible for awards to celebrate women.

As to not being welcome in women's spaces, I guess the same applies, though it would depend what spaces we're talking about of course - are we talking loos or women's groups? But I think the point is that if you don't consider yourself a woman then what is happening in women's spaces that you would consider relevant to you? What would you ask from them and what would you bring?

That they think you remain a woman is easily consistent with both positions. Women's groups, for example, prioritise women's issues, not trans or non binary issues, and they want to give awards to women. If you feel so negatively about being a woman that you don't want to be one, that's antithetical to their aims.

And before anyone accuses me of reducing people to genitals ...