What Makes A Woman?

Language evolves so that we say 'really' for 'very', or so that 'awesome' extends from its original meaning of 'provoking awe' into 'really good'. It doesn't evolve so that the actual meanings of nouns changes to encompass the opposite, usually. Otherwise how would we ever refer to anything?

A woman is an adult human of the female sex (biological)
AND
who is perceived as a human of the female sex from birth (social)
There may be cases of women who are biologically male or intersex BUT who have been perceived as female since birth due to external appearance who are also women. Their existence doesn't invalidate the definition above.

*that image is not Danielle Muscato!

I think it's just male and female, the premise being that language evolves

In this case language hasn't naturally changed, it's been pushed heavily. And I'd say going from definitions that make sense to nonsensical ones is actually devolution.

Vashta language does evolve but you can't force it to either. 99% of people have an image in their head of woman and that image is Danielle Muscato. And I'd say the vast majority of women don't want that definition to change, is it fair to let a minority (from an oppressor class) change the definition for the majority?

Jack, I just had a thought. Did you think that by posting this in FWR rather than say AIBU, you will only get a particular section of responses?

Thanks, today.

Also agree with swiss's comments on patriarchy retaining the binary. I think this is key.

If you look at progress on trans issues, you see it at work. At the one extreme, Iran (!) seems happy with the idea of people transitioning, because it is so virulently opposed to homosexuality. God knows how that works for the people concerned. At the other extreme, you hear utter fury at the suggestion of unisex toilets - which would be great for people who genuinely don't know whether to go in the men's or the women's (an issue affecting not just non-binary people or people beginning to think about gender nonconformity, but also thousands of parents with small children!).

Will - anything I call a sofa is a sofa...

I define as a turtle. A purple one.

So Jack, you were asked this and now you've asked us (having set out your rules for the thread which frankly I suspect would put most MNers' backs up on any normal thread, unless they were issued by MNHQ - but hey, we'll let that go):but are you any closer to knowing what you think yet?

WilLiAmHerschel I think it's just male and female, the premise being that language evolves - not that we can all randomly make up our own words! I've always been happy to say "she" for transwomen and "he" for transmen but I do understand the concerns around changing definitions like that.

Flora's definition on page 1 works for me.

"anyone who defines as a woman is a woman"

Anybody who uses the above defintion I am very curious, do you apply the same logic to all words? Or all nouns? Or is it just the word "woman"?

Yy to

"IN fact they are totally invested in keeping things binary. Just changing the rules about which bit of the binary you belong on"

and

"I had a friend lecture me, quite seriously, about how 'not a man' is a great category to include, as transpeople and non-binary are included in it. She seemed utterly unaware that a transman might not love the idea of being forever defined as 'not a man'. But, of course, patriarchy loves it, having spent the past centuries honing the cultural definition of 'man' to exclude people of colour, homosexuals, and so on."

Think they sum up the whole thread, tbh :)

Brilliant post Robin. Highly logical women on this thread

"IN fact they are totally invested in keeping things binary. Just changing the rules about which bit of the binary you belong on."

swiss that's the best summary I have heard

Thanks fela!

Amazing post robin

As a follow up (which I don't deserve after the last one! ), I will say, something that disturbs me is the way 'not a man' has become the default catch-all group.

I had a friend lecture me, quite seriously, about how 'not a man' is a great category to include, as transpeople and non-binary are included in it. She seemed utterly unaware that a transman might not love the idea of being forever defined as 'not a man'. But, of course, patriarchy loves it, having spent the past centuries honing the cultural definition of 'man' to exclude people of colour, homosexuals, and so on.

MrsToddsShortcut on the theme of women having to make room to accommodate males:

"...the Democratic National Convention has repurposed several women’s bathrooms at the Wells Fargo Center to serve “all genders.”"

I think our focus on definitions risks us dividing when actually most people agree that the above issues are of concern.
Yes I agree the constant chat about definitions is infuriating. But its important too. If we can't name the class that suffers these issues, we can't tackle them.

I will agree it's a difficult question to answer but what is feeling like a woman supposed to feel like?

This phrase keeps coming up on trans threads. They transitioned because they felt like a woman.

To me a woman is someone who has XX genes. Being able to have children is neither here or there. You have XX genes you are a woman. No amount of surgery will change that.

Same to a man. If you have XY genes you are a man. Removing your penis does not make you a woman. If just makes you a man without a penis.

If you identify as a woman and you still have a penis, you need to use the men's bathroom and changing rooms

IN fact they are totally invested in keeping things binary. Just changing the rules about which bit of the binary you belong on.

If transactivists actually gave a fuck about 'rights' and not about women affirming their identity we'd all be campaigning for a third 'sex'.

At the moment I can say 2 women a week are killed by their partners. It's much more difficult to get accurate statistics for trans people.

Rapes, health stats, criminality all this would be better tracked if we had another option besides man and woman.

But transactivists who seems to be overwhelmingly male born don't want that. They want to change the definition of the word woman. So we move over and make space for males but 'non binary' people and transmen don't actually gain any rights.

Do we REALLY want to send transmen in to male prisons? Do we need to start messing up health stats by recording women with prostate cancer? Does the NHS need to start sending out reminds to everyone about getting a smear?

NO we need prisons and domestic violence shelters for trans and non binary people. We need accurate statistics about their health and especially how it is hindered or helped by hormones. Transitions detransitions.

We need unisex changing rooms and toilets with proper safe floor to ceiling doors.