What Makes A Woman?

Are abortion rights a feminist issue?

Is FGM a feminist issue?

State-sanctioned child abuse aka the marriage of underaged girls?

Pregnancy discrimination at work? Freedom to breastfeed?

Rape, a feminist issue? Street harassment? Porn? Page 3? Murder by a partner or an ex?

Which of the above is not to do with the femaleness of the victim/sufferer?

*Around 62,000 women in the UK alone have this, LionHeart.

"MRKH (Mayer Rokitansky Küster Hauser) is a congenital abnormality which affects one in 5,000 women in the UK.

It is characterised by the absence of the vagina, womb and cervix.

Women suffering from the condition will have normally functioning ovaries and so will experience the normal signs of puberty but will not have periods or be able to conceive."*

I couldn't skip past this without commenting because I'm a maths geek....but if 1 in 5000 women have it, and 62,000 women in the UK have it, that would mean the UK population of women alone would be 310,000,000. Do you mean 1 in 500? Or 6200 women have it? Because UK population is 62,000,000.

To get to the topic in point - woman = adult human female.

There have been some fantastic posts on here - VitC, Robin, AlmondPudding, Selkie, Swiss, Seek, Beyond, Felas and lots more.

The link between asd, eating disorders and transgender/gender dysphoria needs much more research. There are links being considered to folks feeling like they are different, not recognising feelings vs physical form due to changes in puberty, sensory issues, the pressure to conform or fit in, missing social cues, assigning feelings and emotions to norms, needing to control things around themselves/making sense of the world etc.

Good luck to you Jack, it seems like you are still on the road to self-discovery. I hope you start to feel better in your own skin very soon.

"I don't think sex as a category is necessary for feminism"

I don't think you know what feminism means, tbh.

Hint: It doesn't mean "Let's fight for the rights of whoever wants to put on makeup".

" Even scientists agree that there are more differences between individuals of one sex than between the sexes in general"

Err, what?

So there's more variation in, say, uterus size between small and large women than between the average woman and the average man?

If we leave aside the stonking great variation in uterine possession, then yeah, good point.

quenched and what about Rain Dove? Woman or man?

"if they can prove a man is biologically female then they are female... Nothing at all with being a woman. The two are different things."

No.

As we see in the definition Woman = Adult human female, the only way to actually be a woman is to be born a female baby, grow up into a girl, and then grow some more and be an adult whereupon she is a woman. That is because the sex of a person cannot be changed with our current science and technology, and being female is a prerequisite to being a woman.

Being perceived as a woman, dressing as a woman, "presenting" as a woman, living according to the gender expectations imposed on women etc are all possible for the male of our species. Actually being a woman is not. Because they are not female.

If we reject sex as a category, how are we going to create more children? Will it just be a mystical surprise that some people somehow end up pregnant? But nobody will have any idea who it will happen to, why or how?

almond

That Statesman article is frightening. In this day and age we should be able to openly talk about menstruation in the workplace - it's f*cking 2016. Men now know what it is, it's not a Victorian secret never to be discussed.

But now our being a woman has to have another lid put on it cos it might upset a man who feels like a woman who cannot discuss these things and therefore has no way of knowing what it feels like to have a woman's body.

Nor will he know what it feels like to have to hide his bodily functions in normal life....oh no, because all he'll know is how to make sure women have to hide theirs. Being oppressed in the workplace is something he is not experiencing....shame as he'll be missing out on what it feels like to be a woman/female in one of the strongest ways.

Bertie I liked your story and yes, it's a mad, scary situation. I can imagine that the male able to turn back into a 'man' is also unlikely to be sexually assaulted in that instance too as a penis is prob not what a rapist is looking for....

If we reject sex as a category, how are we going to farm?

quenched what about Alex Drummond and Daniel Muscato? Both identify as women. Both are biologically male and look biologically male. Daniel Muscato makes no effort to present as feminine. Do you consider those to he men or women?

Adjustable

I don't think sex as a category is necessary for feminism

so it's just coincidence that one sex generally gets the shit end of the stick, the world over? What the fuck is feminism for if you don't recognise that?

"I don't think the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is more important biologically than all the other genetic material that makes each person an individual. Even scientists agree that there are more differences between individuals of one sex than between the sexes in general"

Are you on the wrong thread? We are not talking about what makes one person different than the other. We are talking about what makes one person a woman and the other a man.

We are a sexually dimorphic race - i.e. there are two sexes, male and female. The presence or absence of a Y chromosome is what sets males and females apart. Not just in the human species but also in most other mammals.

This is important to understand, because as I mentioned earlier:

Man = Adult human male
Woman = Adult human female

Haven't RTFT but being a woman is being born with ovaries & a womb - anyone can say they feel like a woman, but that's not the same as being able to produce children. ( of course not all women can have children for various medical reasons )

Quencher, what part of woman do you think is socially constructed that female is not?

Do you think it is the human part of woman that is a construct or the adult part?

Quencher, these old fashioned things like facts and science are not accounted for in transactivism

The reason chromosomes, genitals and gametes are important in these debates is that in over 99% of humans, an individual either has all three as female of all three as male.

There are very few natural phenomena which form a binary to that extent.

They are also how as a species we reproduce, and so are essential to our survival.

you are behind the times. It is now considered transphobic to state that MTTs are not biologically female.

Actually no, if they can prove a man is biologically female then they are female. It has nothing to do with what a woman looks like. It's what can be tested and in correlation with being female. Nothing at all with being a woman. The two are different things.

"It is now considered transphobic to state that MTTs are not biologically female."

Not on MN.

Here, we can talk about biological reality and dictionary definitions.

I agree with posters who say that 'woman' is a social or political construct.

I don't think the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is more important biologically than all the other genetic material that makes each person an individual. Even scientists agree that there are more differences between individuals of one sex than between the sexes in general.

The reason chromosomes (or genitals) are considered important in these debates is because there are already social or political notions as to what a 'woman' is. We can reject sex as a category as easily as we can reject gender as a category. Whether that's useful for feminism is debatable. But I don't think sex as a category is necessary for feminism. I think rejecting sex can be another way to say, "Fuck off with the boxes."

And I also don't think there's only one correct way to do feminism.

I would say the same thing about "a man ". You know the person is a man because of our preformed ideas of what men look like and should behave. However, if you where to carry out scientific test you might find out they are of the female sex.

I still stand by the woman being construct and the female being biological

quencher you are behind the times. It is now considered transphobic to state that MTTs are not biologically female.

Bum, I should have added one more bracket.

It reminded me (yet again) that it is different to be a woman and made me realise (for the first time) how it's not something you can turn on and off like an identity.

Female people are women whether or not they conform to socially constructed expectations. It is certainly possible to scientifically prove a person is female in more than 99% of cases.

Hang on it wasn't Delusions of Gender I was thinking of (though I also think it's a brilliant book) but "The Equality Illusion" by Cat Banyard. That's the angry-making but amazing one.

I think my "peak trans" moment, if you like, and I get that is a bit of a loaded term, but it was a throwaway comment by a transwoman that if she was walking alone at night and was ever threatened she would deepen her voice and revert to her previous, more masculine walking style and basically use her male body to intimidate her attacker and get herself out of the situation.

It just kind of made me crumple a bit. It's not the same situation as a woman who is very physically fit fighting off an attacker with self-defence techniques. It's not even the same situation as a physically slight man fearing assault. It's literally turning around and saying "Don't attack me. I'm not who you want. I'm not a woman really." It reminded me (yet again) that it is different to be female in our world and it's not something you can just turn on and off like an identity.

We don't choose this but we are oppressed for it. Femaleness is not an identity. It's not a burden or a blessing either, it just is. And we are treated differently because of it. It is 2016 and sexism is still sickeningly everywhere and mostly invisible. A lot of it is arbitrary but actually most of it is not and it can be traced down to a root of women being the child-carrying class. Regardless of whether we are fertile that is where it comes from. Patriarchy seeks to control women's sexuality because of the fear that we might become pregnant with the wrong man's child. Of course this is so far back in the depths of time that it seems ludicrous but you follow every sexist thing back and it comes down to either women being "destined" for the caring work which is not valued by our capitalist, patriarchial culture or it's about controlling women's sexuality and making it only on mens' terms. Honestly. Try it. (I probably sound insane.)

I don't have any problem with transgender ideology in theory. I am perfectly happy to use whatever pronouns somebody wants as long as I remember (I'm a bit forgetful). I don't care what people want to wear or do with their lives, subvert expectations. Great! I love the idea of anyone living any way they like as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else. I don't even mind particularly about some argument about toilets. Give me a cubicle and I'm happy enough. Most people, after all, are just trying to use the toilet.

Where I stumble is when I remember that women are oppressed and still need space away from the oppression of men. That doesn't stop me sharing my house with one but it does make me believe that sex-segregated space is still necessary. And why is it necessary? For no reason to do with gender, only sex. Which means that gender has absolutely no basis in a discussion about which sex-segregated space somebody has access to. Ask yourself why something is split and whether it is still necessary. Sometimes it is silly or outdated but sadly, in many situations it is necessary to split people by their sex. It's absolutely nothing to do with excluding people or making them feel less accepted. I'm perfectly happy to accept someone as who they say they are even if it's a bit confusing. On the other hand, there is no need to bend rules which exist for good reason in order to do that.