Feminists hate men

Yeah, and other ways in which marriage was financialised to the benefit of men I guess.

"systems of matrimonial finance), "

What is this? The dowry system?

I agree Some Dyke. While there are woman who identify as feminists who act out hatred of men in violence, they are in such a minority as to be insignificant. But then, the number of women who commit violence full stop are relatively fractional.

I'm not a woman, but I should think what you say is true: some men do seem to respond very negatively to just not being acknowledged by women. One guy I was unfortunnate enough to know punched a woman in the face because she didn't want to have sex with him. Is this another manifestation of patriarchal psychology? As a central conceit of patriarchy is a value transference from female to male (IMO something that originates with systems of matrimonial finance), it makes sense that men react angrily to perceived rejection in ways women tend not to as much. (One woman I worked with did refuse to talk to me for about a month after I declined her offer of sex, but I never felt threatened by her)

However, there are of course instances of specifically not very nice women being rude. I smiled at a lady who had just joined my workplace recently, saying: 'Hi, how are you getting on'? She just looked at me coldly and walked on by. I should think she is just not a very nice human being. Obviously that is very different to what you are talking about which is strange men feeling they are entitled to your attention just because they are men and you are a woman. It must be shit to not be able to sit on a train with a book without worrying about dirty men bothering you.

"Again, I come back to my question about what is the impact on "men" if a few women "hate" them - how does that "hate" manifest, if at all?"
For me, I've just got better things to do with my free time (given that I spend a lot of my working time surrounded by men) than engaging with men. They're just not that interesting or worthwhile.

If you're a feminist this is enough to get you labelled a man-hating feminist (and probably a lesbian as well). If you're a lesbian, that alone can be enough that you get asked repeatedly (usually by men) why you hate men so much.

And the conversation on this thread got me thinking about the many times a strange man has tried to talk to me in the street. You are not allowed as a woman to just have better things to do, be preoccupied, be talking to someone else, and so on (although mobiles and mp3 players have probably changed some aspects of this interaction).

No, I don't hate you, no you haven't offended me (most of the time), or been offensive, you're just not that interesting to me and I have better things to do/think about.

Which is, I suppose, about the biggest insult you can level at the entitled sex! Because hatred itself shows you how much impact they have (just in a negative way, but hey, some people aren't that bothered, positive/negative, at least someone now knows you exist!).

John, I know you're autistic, so I'll say this very straightforwardly. They don't want you on here

Get off, mate. Go do something else

I don't recognise your username Twibble are you new?

Anyway that was an incredibly rude post (please spare me the "women are taught to be polite retort). If any poster breaks guidelines you can report them to MNHQ otherwise it is none of your business who chooses to post where.

I actually think very few feminists hate men. I certainly wouldn't equate separatism with hate - to decide to live life as far as possible just with other women is not in itself proof of hating men.

Again, I come back to my question about what is the impact on "men" if a few women "hate" them - how does that "hate" manifest, if at all? Conversely, if you note that the proportion of men who threaten, assault, rape and murder women have actively done something horrible about their hatred/othering of women, isn't that a bigger problem?

These are the sorts of behaviours - taking over conversations, making them all about you, explaining things that women already know - are the sorts of things that happen a lot in mixed and male dominated spaces, and as a result we have a low tolerance of it here

If something has sparked a new line of discussion, it's polite to start your own thread rather than make the OP's thread all about you and your opinions

Except when some feminists do it on other threads. Then that's perfectly ok. You can then just tell the OP off if they ask to stick to the conversation as that's telling women what to do

But this is off topic as the thread is how to respond to the comment that feminists hate men.

It should be some feminists hate men. And only men as a class.

It's okay I'll give you all a break as I'm off to work. Will attempt to keep my posts succinct and relevant.

Sorry, Lionheart, I'll leave him to it then. Sorry to interfere.

I don't hate you, John. You are intelligent and kind. But you post a lot, and at great length, in a forum that isn't about mens' experience.

There have been lots of hints (and more blatant cues) that you aren't welcome here. You might have missed them. It's like a real life conversation. If people make it obvious they don't want you involved, for whatever reason, swallow your pride and move on. It's not personal.

What's your reply to this?

Proof by counter-example.

I am a feminist. I do not hate men. Therefore, the premise is false.

I will Twibble if everyone really hates me that much. Could I just ask why though? It would be really valuable to know what it is that I am saying that is so offensive.

"Nope. All feminists know that gender is a social construct created to oppress women. (I know, there are so-called feminists who claim that gender is a spectrum and all nice and glittery and snow-flakey, but they don't count)

Sure, it depends on what you believe qualifies as a feminist. I was just pointing that some women who CALL themselves feminists believe there are inherent differences between the genders. I wasn't saying they're right - just acknowledging the fact that they exist."

"And most antifeminists also believe that men cannot change, and those people believe that men therefore should not have to change and women should submit to male violence. "

That's a good point - the key difference between radical separatists and anti feminists is that the former believe men should be avoided while the latter think male violence should be accepted as inherent.

Just to add: if someone has experienced traumatic abuse from the opposite sex (as Dworkin and Solanas did) then it would be psychologically remarkable if they didn't feel some degree of antipathy towards them. Terrible things happened to my grandfather in a Japanese POW camp. As a result his attitudes towards the Japanese were best described as racist. Of course in any general sense I can't excuse such attitudes, but can understand, psychologically, how they developed as a response for trauma.

So if you do suffer sexual abuse from the opposite sex ( and most abuse is committed by men) then it is understandable that you would find liking them difficult. That doesn't mean you have to agree with everything in the SCUM manifesto though!

I would also ask how they think such "hate" manifests itself, for those few women who express that feeling - is it avoiding the company of men as far as possible, or is it, say, seeking them out online and in the street to catcall and threaten?

Obviously it depends on the situation. If you're just looking for a one-liner then I tend to smile semi-condescendingly and say 'How quaint. I had no idea people still believed that kind of thing' (NB This is a handy phrase for all kinds of situations!)

If it's a more thoughtful conversation, I point out that actually feminists have a very high opinion of men. It's not feminists who think men can't be equal parents. It's not feminists who think men shouldn't be nanny's / allowed near young children. It's not feminists who think men can't control themselves in the presence of a short skirt. It's not feminists who think men are incapable of change. It's not feminists who think men should pay for everything just because they're men. It's not feminists who think men should always be strong and tough and have no feelings, etc etc

Sometimes I may elaborate further and point out that every problem identified by men's rights activists would be solved by more feminism...

Marmalade can I ask why? Not trying to be twatty, I'm genuinely curious!

Read the news?

Men are disproportionately violent against women, children and other men, and enough men think that men should be allowed to be violent against women that it took the feminist movement to actually make male violence against women illegal.

Most men also use pornography and see nothing wrong with the violence against women that is the porn industry, and the fact that they are likely to watch (and wank to) a filmed rape when watching porn.

I understand any woman who sees no reason to give individual men the benefit of the doubt any longer.

I think feminists are divided on whether men have more of an inherent tendency to sociopathy than women or whether gender is nothing but a social construct. If you go with the former then it is logical to feel an aversion to men per se, while the latter implies the problem is patriarchal ideology rather than biological maleness.

Nope. All feminists know that gender is a social construct created to oppress women. (I know, there are so-called feminists who claim that gender is a spectrum and all nice and glittery and snow-flakey, but they don't count)

Some (most) feminists believe that men, as a group, can change and become decent people, some believe that the male sex (not gender) has an inherent tendency towards sociopathy, and that society must evolve to enable women to stay the hell away from violent males.

And most antifeminists also believe that men cannot change, and those people believe that men therefore should not have to change and women should submit to male violence.

While the feminists who believe that men are inherently violent could be said to hate men, the same is true for antifeminists, who are a much larger group.

There are radical separatists who openly hate men, but there are just as many people who call themselves feminists who don't. You can't compare Valarie Solanos with Laura Bates; they're coming at gender politics from completely different angles.

I think feminists are divided on whether men have more of an inherent tendency to sociopathy than women or whether gender is nothing but a social construct. If you go with the former then it is logical to feel an aversion to men per se, while the latter implies the problem is patriarchal ideology rather than biological maleness.

I've met a lot of non-feminists who hate men.

That's illogical because men can be feminists.

I don't know. Some women who call themselves feminists probably do hate men - sometimes with good reason. Feminism is such a diverse body of thought and attitudes that you can't hypothesize about it in that way.