I'm starting to hate men

You utter trombone

I can't say how much I love this phrase

Well played, Lady Rivers!

John, I think the first principle you might need to grapple with in your quest to understand feminism, is that feminists and women generally do not require your (or any man's) input or approval. Maybe have a think about that?

" heteronormative"

This is a descriptor. To use it as a phrase is not a rejection of heterosexual relationships. HTH.

Yes Jaquetta I agree feminists should be fixated on those things. I was responding to another poster who opined that we SHOULDN'T be seeing everything through the lens of sexuality - and I kind of agreed with that too. Please people.

"feminism and sexual liberationism (very broadly speaking) rejected love and commitment as foundations of western civilisation. "

"What feminism should perhaps have done is foster an evolution of monogamous love into something more equitable and progressive. Instead, it got rid of it all."

No, I can't think where I'm getting it from.

Hi Jacquetta. I did not say that feminists are against relationships. I said that SOME feminists reject a loving relationship between men and women as heteronormative. Of course others don't.

And of course I think all those things you list are good. Where have I suggested otherwise? Can people please stop imputing views to me to the effect that I object to all feminists and think women should not have help escaping abusive relationships. I have no idea where you are getting all this from.

"Many feminists are fixated by sexual politics."

Funny, that. What with rape, porn, FGM, child marriage (aka state sanctioned abuse), prostitution all being issues related to sexual politics and all being feminist issues.

Dervel is a man. And far too self-aware to speak for women on dating sites, or indeed for women in general.

Buffy I have said repeatedly that I not referring to all feminism/gender theory. I am aware it is a very very broad church.

And where did you get the idea that feminists are anti-relationships?

Feminists are anti-bad relationships, and pro structures that enable women to get out of bad relationships - child maintenance, refuges, the right to be instigators of divorce, the right to retain a job after marriage if we're going back 50 years or so.

Is that what you object to?

I'm not worried about your commitment to the hetronormative edifice. Why do you think I would have a problem with asexuality or whatever sexual identity you have? I was thinking of my sister who really wants someone to love her but instead just gets lots of horrible pervy comments from sleazebags.

And why this issue with women who are 'heteronormative'? Kind of goes against the proffessed credo that all women's lifestyle choices are to be respected doesn't it?

I was reading something a while back about a young woman who believed in abstinence. Shee received a barrage of BTL abuse to the effect of being a betrayer of the true cause. But really what business is it of anyone's? Tbh on some fetid college campus abstaining is probably the most radically nonconformist thing a woman can do. A purity ring is the modern equivalent of a safety pin through your nose.

"But sections of the left, including SOME feminists bear some responsibility too: they rejected all moral values as oppressive and restricting individuals from doing as they please. Now we have the consequences: 11 year olds asking girls for anal."

Oh my goddess. You just blamed feminism for this?

You utter trombone.

And I agree with Buffy.

Re the women only village
I have been saying I'd like that on the basis that I'd be allowed to leave the village and meet anyone not in the village, including my male friends, in our usual watering holes.

If the village has a "no leaving the village" rule then I wouldn't fancy it.
I would like it if the village included shops, bank, gym, so I didn't have to deal with random blokes so much. But if random blokes were less ready with either propositions or threats I'd feel different. Last night a group of us were walking back to our hotel, in about a ten minute walk I think we had five drunk guys yell out suggestive comments. Argh.

Nobody has to speak for anyone. We can all speak for ourselves. "Championing" other people and speaking for them does not lend more significance or legitimacy to your voice.

I think you may be engaging in wishful thinking if you think there are hundreds of thousands of women who are desperate for the love of a man being disappointed on dating sites,

I'm also astonished about how you've managed to go from some incredibly complex argument about the whole of society to retreating to damsels in distress on Tinder.

And I've been in one relationship with a man since I was twenty two, so you need not worry about my lack of commitment to the heteronormative edifice.

Why do you have to speak for them? Well, you don't have to; but then you're limiting the debate to your own concerns and viewpoint. Personally I think that's not good.

Sorry why what?

Why?

Well, that's absolutely fine. If you don't want to have sex with men or don't want a relationship then there is no problem. But for women who do want those things then there is a problem. Go onto a dating site and you'll see hundreds of thousands of women desperate for love from a man who will treat her with the respect a human being deserves and not send her a picture of his cock. You kinda have to speak for them too.

Not only a woman available for xyz but entitled to a woman for xyz. Like a john who is certain he is entitled to take over a thread in a feminism forum and answers every pp as if he is the moderator and tells each pp whether she has expressed herself well ...or not ....and comes out with gems like" what feminists shd have done "!! And does not understand mansplaining. AT least we don't have to deal with him in real life.

I think your grandparents are probably a poor example because they are still a heteroromantic relationship.

Very many women simply do not want to have long term relationships with men, sexual or romantic.

Very many women don't want to have recreational sex with many in any context.

That was inevitably going to be an outcome of feminism because heteronormativity was socially enforced.

Ha ha. I meant a regular sex life. They were very asexual I think.

Ummm I hate to be the one to point this out but your grandparents definitely hopped on the good foot and did the bad thing, unless your father was adopted....

Almond: absolutely - that is how it should be. I only mention sex because it is so central to our culture. We're unhealthily fixated on it. Many feminists are fixated by sexual politics. It is EVERYWHERE.

According to my father my grandparents never had a sexual relationship; but they loved one another dearly for sixty years. That sort of deep friendship is how a relationship should be IMO. People should not be utilities - to be used for sex or money or anything else. If as a culture we normalize that then we are on a dark and dangerous road. Life without love is death.