I'm starting to hate men

Well I suppose I would say to the OP that all men are not bad of course. Unfortunately many are though.

My original point was that SOME feminism seems a bit confused about the nature of heterosexual relations - that we're still in the process of figuring out what relationships about men and women are supposed to be about now all the old certainties are gone. All the old certainties were very dubious, but we're all in this strange interregnum now where we are still figuring it out.

I can understand the OP hating men: they are responsible for most of the inhumanity in the world. And I do think in this post-love, post-humanist world where more and more human experience is being colonized by capitalism, men are becoming all the more dehumanised and cruel. Everything is about the self now that socialism and everything is gone - and I would say some feminists can't see a way to rehumanize relationships between the genders in this very unstabke, rapaciously capitalist. Sime feminists bought in to the illusory freedom romised by capitalism and it's kinda backfired. I really don't mean to blame women for the way men behave - or to suggest that feminism is wrong ...just that it seems to me, humbly, as a man, a bit...lost?

But then everything is. Look at the Labour Party! Nobody really knows what leftism should be about anymore.

Are you really not going to explain the whole of the patriarchy Buffy?

I really enjoy it when you attempt to explain big concepts in three paragraphs or less.

I have fond memories of Gender Trouble, which I'm sure is not something that happens often.

You seem to feel as though you're entitled to our time and responses, simply because you've met your own standard of what constitutes polite discourse. This is an example of the way that men expect to be able drain women's energy, without even being aware that this is what is happening

God I love you Buffy.

Hi Jacquetta. Sorry, I really didn't mean to blame feminism for the sexual misbehaviour of boys. I think some feminists in the 70's bought into the while 'Me' decade thing and thought removing sexual prohibitions was the way forward. I remember Dworkin writing something to the effect that she opposed sexual liberationism on the basis that if all women are liberated then consent is negated. And in a funny way men thinking that all women are 'up for it' is maybe an example of that. I don't want you think about that as a woman. But I know guys in their twenties who think nothing of approaching strange women with a view to sex, while I don't remember that being such a norm twenty years. Of course there was sexual aggressive behaviour, but it seems to have gone mainstream now.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Yet another thread has been spectacularly derailed, and taken over, by a man.

Well put, dervel.

You are right Buffy is worth listening to, a basic search of the forums will give any number of topics she has contributed to to read up on.

Buffy, I am interested in what you think. You seem very erudite and I might learn something from what you have to say. I wasn't demanding a response from you, just asking.

I find it odd that respectful disagreement cannot be accommodated.

I'm the only respondent to you that you feel has been disrespectful; even then, I didn't use ANY swearie words.

I think it was not respectful to blame feminists for... shall I say it again? But I guess you are getting over the perceived disrespect by ignoring me.

Dervel Sun 17-Jul-16 21:03:29

Read the room John, read the room...

Way hey. I agree with Buffy !

In a thread that I didn't think could get any odder, Lass and Buffy are agreeing

What the hell was in that cocktail my husband made me earlier? I seem to have teleported into another dimension.

Buffy: I haven't asked enough, you're right. How do you think patriarchy can be best challenged, culturally?

I can't believe Lass and Buffy finally agreed on something!

Read the room John, read the room...

Batteries, You should do what is best for you. If you find that you can make better judgements and feel more secure by keeping strong boundaries in place, then do so.

The better outcomes for kids were connected to women investing more of the available time and income in kids, rather than things like different generational perspectives, iirc.

That is a fair point Buffy. I should have been more concise. I would welcome any criticisms you have nevertheless.

Freshwater: I have listened - and agreed with some points and disagreed with others. What else am I supposed to do? I find it odd that respectful disagreement cannot be accommodated. I have just been commenting on the situation in turkey on another site and everyone seems to disagree but it isn't a big deal.

As I said, I was responding to some comments about the nature of gender identity. I dont expect anyone to gasp at my wisdom, just critically engage with the debate. Sorry if my comments haven't made good sense: that is a failure on my part.

And what is with all the dichotomies? You can assert you opinion that there's a choice of either monogamous love or WE'RE DOOOOOOOOMED but... Really? You see no other possibility for human sociality?

Way hey. I agree with Buffy !

Well if you are using someone for nothing but sex then you are objectifying them, surely?

Was that a reply to me? Punters and consumers of porn use women (and occasionally men) for nothing but sex. Do you really think there can only be a mutually satisfying sexual encounter if it's part of monogamous long term relationship?

I see thanks buffy and almond.

Every woman I know who is living with extended family with a baby, or who has extensive family 'help' seems to find it very stressful and a battle at times. But perhaps being exposed to a wider range of social relationships is better for kids (even with the stress it can bring) than just avoiding multiples carers altogether.

Sorry for derailing. It's a topic I've thought quite a bit about but yet don't know what my opinion really is about a lot of it. If that makes sense. I had an abusive upbringing so I guess my instinct is to reject other people getting involved in my parenting but I know that's my personal baggage.

"Well if you are using someone for nothing but sex then you are objectifying them, surely? "

Using? What does that mean? "fun, no strings attached sex" was mentioned - why is that 'using'?