I'm starting to hate men

I don't think 'feminsm' has got it wrong.

Lots of 'feminsts' do say that women can empower themselves through sex. That obviously isn't the kind of feminism you approve of, and I'm with our on that. But it does exist, and is referred to as feminist.

I think we're in agreeance that feminism is a term hat accommodates a vast body of thought, some of which is credible and some of which is garbage. Kind of like socialism, or conservatism. Or almost anything else.

There are mllions of articles and blog posts like this floating about. I'm sure I could find lots more.

So why are you putting forward one random, badly written article in support of your case that feminism has got it wrong?

Lass, we agree!! It is appallng tosh. That is my point.

Oh please; I've painstakingly pointed out that the postwar mixed economy was not some golden age of respect between the genders. I know about marital rape, and clement freud, and hanging. Just that Fifty Shades of Grey and an internet awash with filth is not exactly the best we can do as a corrective.

And I don't think capitalism is bad. Neoliberalism is bad. Huge difference.

Men have the gift of physical power. Women have the gift of sexual power.

Have we?

We worship men’s physicality at the altar of sport and aggressive action at work

Do we?

If this power is taken from a man, it is competition. At worst, he is an emasculated wimp

Is he?

I suppose I could critique the rest of that article but I can't be bothered. May I just says it's tosh and any article which has to refer to Miley Cyrus and the cast of Girls, with approval, to validate its point can probably, safely be ignored.

All the old certainties gone? Have they? When did I miss that memo?

I think John may be thinking of some golden age between 1945 and say Mrs Thatcher's 2nd election win. An era where the reforms brought in by the post war Labour government were the right things for the time; an era when heavy industry and manufacturing required a large skilled, semi-skilled and even unskilled workforce; an era where the pill was invented and attitudes towards sex and sexuality became more tolerant (but nice people still only really did it when they were married).

And capitalism is bad. Very bad.

During this period of course the concept of marital rape didn't exist, equal pay and maternity rights didn't exist or were paid lip service.



She makes some perfectly bang on points about consent. But that isn't power, just a n expectation of baseline civilized behaviour. Telling your daughter or son that is somehow normal and right to do anything they feel sexually inclined to do without considering all the hugely complex emotional, psychological and political implications of doing the most intimate thing possible with another human being is downright bullshit. I'm confident on that one.

Tbh I don't really know, but feminists do allude to it a lot. For example:www.huffingtonpost.ca/krista-thompson/women-sexuality_b_5013099.html

I was just about to ask that.

Sorry, meant reclaim 'sexual POWER' in that way.

Of course it doesn't represent all analyses and activism. As for sexual liberationism, it was obviously well-intended but Dworkin's analysis is that it got co-opted by a men as a means of sexualising women to the core. Of course she then found herself in some uncomfortable lliances with the moral conservative right.

I don't know. If I may, it just seems all the zipless fuck stuff doesn't hold politically. I'm speaking as a man I know, but it just seems odd the idea that you can reclaim sexual in that way.

Not sure I really believe in anyone having sexual power. Sex should be the absolute antithesis of power. Rather than women gaining it men should be encouraged to lose it.

I am hoping along with many others that you are bowing out now since you have seem to have given a one word apology for taking over this thread with your problematic opinions. I am sorry for any female who has to listen to you in RL. COnsidering the frequency with which you dragged sex into each one of your problematic opinions, I am wondering if you are trying to use a feminist forum as a dating site . Perhaps your problematic opinions are your equivalent of a dicpic . Please do not respond.

I kind of meant socioeconomic certainties. A job for life etc.

Erm....no not necessarily. I think some feminists are very focussed on sexual identity though. In a way that's because it is one of the only forms of identity we have left. Hence all this demi, cis, trans, non-binary sort of stuff. That's all fine but the no-platforming thing has gone a bit crazy. Everyone is very defensive of their own sexual political identity like it's a form of capital.

But it depends on the kind of feminism I guess, don't you think? Marxist feminism would think more in terms of economic structures for example.

Hi Buffy . Sorry that was a bit of a big ask!

Well, I think the internet has bred some sexual subcultures that have filtered up into mainstream liberal feminism. All that kinkster kind of stuff - pro-porn, pro-hook-up. Allied to that is a very individualist, materialistic sort of neoliberal feminism. It seems very much to be about the self, individualuzed material success, sex. And you hear some women who call themselves feminists saying some truly bizarre things. There was some feminist porn star on some BBC 3 thing saying that girls shouldn't worry about their appearance because the thing they hate most will be represented by some porn site. So you can feel okay about the part of you you hate most because some guy is wanking about it? Great. That isn't what I want for my daughter. And then there are people like Lucy Rhiannon Cosslet who said that teenage sexting is liberating for girls and anyone who disagreed is a slut shaming moral prude. I thought that that was downright shocking. Young girls listen to these women and they have a duty not to talk such irresponsible rot.

Of course if you take the time to search out credible feminist critiques then there is no end of fascinating stuff that has really helped me challenge my preconceptions about gender.

Look, I do appreciate that a man opining about feminism is REALLY problematic; but it is something that fascinates me and I read about all the time. Being hyper-analytical I tend to go overboard. Sorry.

All the old certainties gone? Have they? When did I miss that memo?

Only a male could think that!

Feminists, hands up if you're confused!

Hands up if you're confused about feminism!

I'm sorry, I just can't take this seriously any more The Patriarchy did it.

Wasn't the wicker man based on a village of women

Count me in !

Sorry about inumberable typos.

Once again: I'm not saying women should be the ones responsible for rehumanizing gender relations; more that there has to be the right context for that to women. We kinda need some new idea of what love and sex should be about. A new kind of society and economy even. This kind of nihilistic consumer culture is deadly for positive gender relations I think.

As I say though: it is unfair to single feminism out for being a bit incoherent. All social justice movements seem to be a bit all over the shop at the most don't you think?