I'm starting to hate men

LMGTFY:

denoting or relating to a world view that promotes heterosexuality as the normal or preferred sexual orientation

"heteronormative values"

I have no idea what heteronormative values are.

I also have no idea what you think heteronormative means.

at what’s happened to this thread.

I totally know what you mean, OP. I think that I’m heading the same way and I’ve no idea how to combat it. Small example: I was just listening to a comedy podcast; someone said something sexist and I was just like “FFS”! I had previously been enjoying it, but now I’m just annoyed.

I work in an office in which all but one of our managers are female (probs because it an admin-type job with very good flexi terms and, of course, women are responsible for childcare so flock towards it), the one male manager constantly complains that he’s a minority and makes unfunny quips about it. He hasn’t a got a CLUE but sent out an email the other day asking us to remember to say that when we tell a customer that someone will phone them back that that person could be male or female so to make sure we’re not just saying ‘she’. Well, since the few male staff couldn’t possibly deal with phones since they’ve all been placed on the post room team (very complicated post machinery, us women couldn’t cope), he can fuck off!

Like it Buffy

Buffy, you and others were talking about whether male violence is biologically determined or socialised.

And I don't want to define the peramaters of the discussion.

Tbh I don't get what the discussion is really about. We either assume that men are innately predisposed to rape and violence (which as a feminist I assume you don't); or we assume that there are sociocultural reasons for men behaving the way they do. If the latter is the case then the OP need not entirely despair because theoretically men can change.

That just seems like a logical way to proceed.

I talk about sexual politics because that does seem to have become the main focus of Western feminist debate - and the issue of sexual violence is seen as central to female oppression.

You then think 'well, what kind of sexual equality do we want in the 21st century?'. And that is where things get problematic.

I could just simply agree or disagree with the OP but what wouldnt be a proper discussion would it? And this is a discussion forum about feminism isn't it?

Yes I do Buffy. Why?

When I said return to the OP's point, I meant the subject of whether men are bad. I was also responding to things other posters had written in response and reflecting on my sisters experiences of dating and her belief that most men are horrible. I wasn't assuming anything about the the OP's circumstances. I don't know the OP. I can only come at this from a theoretical perspective.

Lots of other people were making points about biological determinism etc that did not DIRECTLY refer to the original question. Surely that happens on open discussion forums all the time?

Buffy: the topic is a lack of trust on the part of women in men; and whether the possibility of an equitable heterosexual relationship is a viable option. There was also discussion, prior to me coming on here, about the nature of gender identity. Surely that has to be analysed in a socioeconomic context?

Sorry, I maybe by contextualise and intertextualise a bit, and go off on tangents. But the construction of gender and the rejection of heteronormative values by certain schools of feminism does pertain to the question of whether men are bad or not, and how we should most intelligently think about them.

Fair point Jacquetta - and really that is mine to.

Returning to the OP's original point: it is certainly true that lots of women do want some kind of long term relationship with a man - though obviously not some kind of servile contract whereby she is exploited as a domestic drudge and privately owned sexual commodity. Those days have thankfully gone.

So therefore what kind of heterosexual compact should we have in the 21st century? Not sure any one knows (including me). It does seem that a culture of casual sex is reccomend by SOME 'feminists' as an alternative, but that just gets coopted by the capitalist system into another a way of objectifying and dehumanising women (and to a lesser extent men).

We need a new sexual and social morality I think. Not just 'if it feels good do it'.

Mamaka I, too am glad you came back.

I choose to deal with my hatred of men like this. I am boring. It is like a flow chart.

Decide what is okay. Decide what is not okay. Draw some lines.

Does what is happening cross my lines?

Yes. Okay. Leave the situation.

No? Okay. Am I safe towards myself and/or others? No? Okay. Leave the situation, safely.

Yes? Okay. Do I have energy to stay in the situation?

No? Okay. Leave the situation.

Yes? Do I give a shit?

No? Okay. Leave the situation.

Yes? Okay, stay in the situation. Use my boring, problem solving skills. Listen a lot. Read a lot. Try to resolve the situation.

This is why a women-only village is not my solution. Where this has been tried, what has happened is that power differentials have emerged. Fiction and science fiction describe this. Let us stay here smashing the patriarchy, and not retreat into our own sub-system where we reproduce the power structures that we were once taught.

etc etc.

In short: hate the game [patriarchy] not the players [the human race]. Change the game.

And FWR is rarely categorised as promoting liberal lefty feminism. That might be a first!

What views should I be paying attention to Fela?

"Maybe you think 'heteronormativity' is best rejected. But female friends of mine do seem to want relationships with men"

Use of the word heteronormativity doesn't mean that one thinks heterosexual relationships are bad, or indeed that one isn't in such a relationship. As I said above.

Communication is a two way street.

someone who isn't in lock-step with every tenet of liberal lefty feminism gets shouted at on here.

Way to show you pay no attention to anyone's views except your own.
HAve another biscuit

Morning all. Hi Mamaka. I did respond directly to your question earlier.

In summation, I guess all I'm really saying is an AREA of feminism has transmogrified into a kind of personal branding exercise - just another manifestation of a hyper-indvidualstic society. I would also say it has played a part in the neoliberalisation of sexual relations under the guise of some BS about sexual empowerment.

Surely this isn't a radical position: lots of other 'feminists' are themselves are making these criticisms of this species of 'feminism'. People keep assuming my criticism is of feminism per se when it is really of the kind of 'market feminism' currently impugned by lots of other feminists (Kat Barnyard for example). Broadly put, this kind of feminism makes choice and self-created identity a key metric; but people do not make choices completely freely or determine their own identities in a socioeconomic vacuum.

How is this relevant? Well, men and women will not be able to strike a good deal in this hyper individualistic culture. Ain't gonna happen. Maybe you think 'heteronormativity' is best rejected. But female friends of mine do seem to want relationships with men. Lots of women do even if you don't, so therefore we need to think about about what kind of culture best fosters heterosexual relations that are happy and equal. These female friends continually complain that men are shits: that they're selfish, adolescent, unfaithful, are on porn all the time. They're right, but a feminism that is really another form of liberal relativism, fetishizing choice over collectivist ideals, will only add to that problem.

It does seem that someone who isn't in lock-step with every tenet of liberal lefty feminism gets shouted at on here. I could just say 'down with the heteronormative kriarchy man and, like, let's just be free from oppression so as we can do what we want'. But that would be sophomoric rubbish wouldn't it?

Glad you came back mamaka

It took him 2 mins on Google to come up with a quote to avoid answering the latest awkward question . He never said answers any of them . Just slips slides away and runs off his mouth some more.