Abortion Support Network- abortion not just a women's issue?

Sorry if that was a bit of an Northern Ireland centric rant, but I had to let it out!

Lurcio I think you've put that very well!

I'm a Northern Ireland woman, with deeply held Christian beliefs and practicing faith, but I am also a firm advocate for the woman's right to choose abortion.

In NI abortion is just not mentioned, at all, anywhere when a woman is pregnant. It is a non-issue in medical circles because it is like it hasn't been invented here (yet).

Some of the strongest advocates for pro-choice are women - as one would expect. And there is a large Marie Stopes clinic on a central popular street in Belfast city centre.

The biggest advocates for babies-are-precious-and-must-be-born-at-all-costs are men, usually to be found ringing into talk shows on radio to complain that abortion is afforded to anyone anywhere.... I often wonder if these men can actually hear themselves, and if they are aware of the stigmas attached to being a vulnerable mother, with poor benefit systems, with little respect given to the relentless grind of motherhood.

I'm not saying that men can't have a say, or an opinion. But that this IS a women's issue, so let the women make the decisions - policy wise, in practice when campaigning, and for their own bodies.

Yy. Especially as this charity is not just a general abortion charity in the UK, but one that specifically helps women in IoM/NI/Eire who are confronted with the (devolved) law that it is illegal for a woman to have an abortion.

The UN has ruled these laws unlawful (link upthread) because they are sexist. How do you propose that is addressed if it is no longer a biological sex issue, but a gender-free one instead?

Very - I am sorry for your son's predicament, and I hope that with support he goes on to lead a happy life which he is comfortable with. But let me try to explain why abortion is a women's issue.

My mum used to use a great quote (can't remember the source): "If men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament." I'm starting with this to place debates about abortion in their historical context within a society shaped by its Judeo-Christian religious roots, and long history of patriarchy. Now of course that quote is (and is intended to be) a very provocative statement, both in the sense of provoking strong emotions (comparing an act which according to Catholic doctrine is murder with a sacrament) and in the sense of provoking thought. Because if you go back through the history of Christianity you can see the knots the church tied itself in concocting and defending the concept of a just war (Jesus being fairly unequivocal that killing was wrong and pacificism was a good idea!). This got to the point where going on the Crusades to kill people gained you remission from your sins, in theological terms. We still see this confused set of values among right wing Christian Republicans in the USA - typically they will picket abortion clinics while upholding the right to bear arms and defending the death penalty.

So, if the people who attack abortion rights are selective in their application of the right to life, it's informative to ask "who's getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop here?" If you asked them, they would say that the foetus is the sine qua non of an innocent life, hence its rights cannot be trumped by someone else's right to bodily autonomy (unlike, say, an enemy combatant whose right to life might be in conflict with your nation's right to self-determination, or a murderer whose right to life might be in conflict with the victim's famimly's right to restitution). They would then claim that the fact that the only people whose autonomy is impinged upon are women (and a very tiny minority of transmen) is simply a biological accident.

They would of course be talking hogwash, because a cursory glance at their other beliefs rapidly reveals that on the whole they also oppose contraception, straightforward divorce, and push for very conservative social attitudes towards women's place in society. This is why abortion is a women's rights issue - because it is part of a systematic attempt to control women and reduce their right to self-determination. Obfusticating that by insisting on Orwellian New Speak in talking about abortion removes the ability to name the problem and explain why it happens. Instead of being a systematic attack on women's rights because they are women, it becomes a case of "random shit happens, move along now, nothing to see."

This is why we are so resistant to taking the word "woman" out of abortion literature.

If someone has such disconnect that they cannot see that the biological 'female' sign includes them as ftt, how are they going to cope with a d&c?

The female sex sign comes from the ankh, which is an Egyptian fertility symbol. Nothing is more apt for an abortion charity than something which addresses fertility.

It's difficult being a young girl anyway. My daughter's friends have already started fretting about being fat (aged eight) and are surrounded by depressing hairless plastic sexualised images of women everywhere, and their boy contemporaries will be raised on porn. When I was a teenager I took great solace in feminist literature and activism which helped bridge the gap between the oversimplified images of femaleness I saw depicted and the complicated reality I experienced myself. I am so glad I didn't have a lot of Alice in Wonderland shite about how men can get pregnant and women are allowed take their beards and penises into the ladies changing rooms and Olympics events. If you are a trans person you have to accept that the sexes are not equal to begin with and respect that. It's extraordinary how men lose nothing while women lose everything -I wonder if it'll make even more young women decide it's shit being a woman and transition?

I've just emailed.
Verysad- your child is female and that's inescapable fact. If they need an abortion then (unless you and their school has failed to teach them any basic facts) they will understand that they need an abortion clinic. Any pregnant person who needs an abortion but sees that the logo for an abortion clinic is the symbol for female, then decides that abortion clinic is 'not for them' is...well I don't really know how to express how extraordinarily stupid that person would be.
Being in the position of needing an abortion is pretty shit for anyone. Let's not pretend it's worse for trans people than women eh?

Verysad, does your child live in the RoI or in Northern Ireland? No? Then the service is not for them anyway.

If you are pregnant in the RoI or NI and don't want to be, then your problems are a bit bigger than what a logo looks like. The website makes it clear that anyway that they will assist transmen too.

It does suggest it to me, if its the one that was put up earlier. I thought that was the whole point of the thread?

The current logo does not suggest the service is only for women.

Surely it should be possible to make a logo which does not suggest the service is only for women without it being one which puts women off?
If the laws may be abolished due to sexism surely that could happen anyway as there is sexism directed against anatomically female bodies rather than female gender? Or does it make a difference?

Abortion is an issue for people with fertile female anatomy

Exactly. Which is what the logo reflects. It is the symbol for female. Regardless of how your child identifies their sex is female.

I dont think you have quite understood the points being made regarding how changing the logo will put people (possibly your child) at serious risk of having no access to abortion. Are you really saying you would prefer that your child had no legal or other access to abortion as long as the symbol of one organisation didnt have any acknowledgement of the people it (used to ) provide help for? Is that really preferable?

very I don't think anyone on here isn't sympathetic to your son's situation and how difficult it must be for him, however at no point is anyone suggesting trans boys/men should not access abortion. You say having it targeted at women only May put them off getting an abortion - the same works for women who now would feel comfortable the it's a women's issue, and turning it into something else may put them off also. Except the numbers will be greater.

And as a pp said the alternative is possibly anti-abortion laws to continue because it erases the one card we have left holding - the fact the laws may be abolished due to sexism. Making it a mans issue means we can no longer demand the banning on the grounds of sexism, leaving us holding zero cards. Do you really think that's a better option? There is currently some light at the end of the tunnel and you really want to put a stop to that so a tiny minority can feel included?

Abortion is an issue for people with fertile female anatomy, and like it or not that does include transboys/men (probably especially transboys as the hormone treatment will normally destroy your fertility). My child is unhappy with being in what he considers the wrong body, and actually 'unhappy' does not begin to describe it. Of course having an abortion would be worse than seeing the symbol for woman on the paperwork. But it might make the difference for transboys of accessing or not accessing the service. I mean they might anyway, but some of them may just assume its not for them at all, and then there is nothing.
I'm very ambivalent about abortion actually (I'm not sure if I can be a feminist and have doubts about it). But if you're going to have a service to help access it, it seems to me that transboys are in at least as much need and should not be made to feel unwelcome.
Surely from a legal point of view abortion laws would still be discriminatory against people born with female anatomy?

Verysadpants, your child is a gender-non-conforming person of female sex, so of course the abuse is worse than what you, a woman who probably performs femininity to some degree, get.
I daresay a young butch lesbian would get the same abuse. Perhaps more.

Does the politics of it have to come at the expense of those who may desperately need their service?

Are you aware that this portraying abortion as something that has nothing to do with a person's sex could mean that the anti-abortion laws cannot be abolished on the grounds of them being sexist, and will therefore stay in place?
Is that really what you want? Do you want millions of women to suffer so that about 1% of the population don't have to cope with a bit of discomfort caused by a symbol and some words?

Your child is underage. If an abortion was needed, then surely, you could access the charity and do all the paperwork, if your child really cannot cope with the cognitive dissonance of accessing a service that's for women.

However, if your child reports sex dysphoria (gender dysphoria, i.e. being unhappy with being assigned the gender role of subhuman fucktoilet, is a very healthy reaction every girl shows to some degree, so if you claim that your child is unhappy with the actual female body, not the male reactions to it, that's sex dysphoria in my book), then I think having the actual abortion would be much, much worse than seeing the symbol and/or word for "woman" somewhere on the paperwork.

I really think there is a big question over whether some transboys would actually survive a pregnancy.

Many girls and women do not survive pregnancy. That is why banning abortions is murder. Misogynist murder. And we have to name it as what it is.
Claiming that abortion is not a women's issue makes this hate against women invisible.

Does the politics of it have to come at the expense of those who may desperately need their service?

Including the women who desperately need their service?

Because there will be people who will use any rebranding that erases the acknowledgement that abortion is for females (a fact) to further erase that existing support and to prevent any progress that may be made in achieving legal abortion in Ireland and NI.

I've nc for this - I hope. I'm the parent of a transboy (ie. ftm), and he is not part of any trans agenda, he is just massively vulnerable and subject to daily discrimination and abuse on a scale way beyond anything I've experienced as a woman. He is male. Its in his brain. He's not pretending, or if he is, he has been doing it without tripping up for years. You can't get surgery or hormone treatment likely until you are 18, so it is certainly not beyond possibility that transboys such as him could get pregnant before its put out of question. Especially because using female type contraception, even if he could get it, can be very problematic psychologically. Unwanted pregnancy is obviously awful for anyone, but for him/them it is also a potentially unbearable violation of his/their gender identity. I really think there is a big question over whether some transboys would actually survive a pregnancy. I know there are other issues involved here, but please, this organisation is trying to brand itself to be open to what are extremely vulnerable children in an excruciating situation. Does the politics of it have to come at the expense of those who may desperately need their service?

Yes I looked at their 2015 annual report too, and noticed that under "Goals for 2016" they say "We want to be able to help every person who contacts us". Now of course that could mean husbands, partners etc. but equally it could mean "pregnant persons". I guess it depends what previous annual reports say.

Rhonda
It was a decision I have taken with a heavy heart, it really is.

But I think that if you are going to battle in an area such as reproductive rights and abortion, you a) need to be made of stern stuff, and b) need to pick your battles.
It is just beyond comprehension to me that they acquiesce like this. If they haven't got the guts to stand up to the trans community and tell them this issue isn't to do with them, then how the bloody hell do they propose to be able to play any meaningful part in the wider debate with darling Bernie and her band of religious nutters?

It's made me cross. They just had to stick to their knitting and avoid getting played by external groups with their own agendas, be that a fringe of trans-activists, or religious groups.

If they can't make the most basic stand for women's rights, they aren't the group I thought they were

Women on the Waves are getting the money that was previously going to ASN, as they don't seem to be ashamed about providing women with a service.

I haven't yet looked in detail at the ASN trustee minutes, but their last annual report quite clearly states 'women' in their Mission, Values and Vision, so this is a recent change of direction:
"Vision
A world where women have the information and means to access safe,
legal abortions wherever they live.
Mission
To provide information, financial assistance and accommodation to women who may be forced to travel to England to access a safe, legal abortion.
Values
• We believe that all women have the right to safe and legal abortions.
• We believe in providing practical support to enable women to
exercise this right.
• We are compassionate and respectful of women and their decisions."

www.abortionsupport.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ASN_2015_Annual_Report.pdf

sparechange

So they've lost you already as a funder .

I'd be interested to know what you find from the minutes of their trustees meetings if you don't mind reporting back.

opposite sex to that which they are

I am writing to them at the moment. I wanted to use some examples of how accepting people are the opposite sex to that which they say they are hurts women in a variety of different ways and in a variety of different situations and wanted to include the example of the person called "Simon" who tweeted that he'd decided to speak "as a woman" at a Green Party conference despite presenting as a male and being male to all intents and purposes (they asked for more women to come forward as up to that point comments etc had been dominated by men). Does anyone know when that happened. The tweet itself is recorded on thenewbacklash.com but I don't see a date....

This is so frustrating. ASN are such a great charity. I've donated to them in the past. I think they do such important work and it's all on a shoestring. And then they go and spout this nonsense!

I do think it's worth people emailing them. Sometimes things like this come from one influential person (a funder, an important board member) and the charity might actually welcome emails complaining about it because it supports them in resisting whatever pressure they're coming under from whoever it might be.

I sent (having already outed myself should they read this thread by posting my first email!)

Thank you for your quick reply

I am stuck on how to respond to it though - it feels as if you didn't actually read my email at all? I have no issues with you redesigning the logo, it is the problems I worry that can result from the wider attempt to be 'gender inclusive', rather than addressing abortion access as a sex issue (which it is).

I hope you are able to reassure me