Abortion Support Network- abortion not just a women's issue?

very you lost me at abortion not entirely being a women's rights issue.

I can well understand why a young woman in today's society would not want to be a woman, but you can't identify your way out of biology. It's I credibly harmful to women to pretend that men can get pregnant too and it's somehow a gender neutral issue.

The ASN website states that trans men are welcome to use their services too. What more is needed? Why is that tiny group of females a priority over the other groups I asked about?

Thecatsmum You may laugh but it's not funny for my child when he is referred to as 'she' and 'her'. If he was in the situation of being pregnant that would be bad enough without people refusing to recognise his gender.
Hermoine I don't know about trans propoganda, if there's somewhere a conspiracy of entitled men pretending to be women to get better treatment or take the piss, maybe there is. But from where I am looking, discrimination against trans people is absolutely rife, in policies, public space, in attitudes, everything. It's an incredibly hard road, on a daily basis, and unlike being a woman you don't have half the population walking that road with you. That's why I stuck my head above the parapet on this thread.

Questing - we don't live in NI/ROI but have friends and family there. Just because something is happening in a different country doesn't mean you can't have a view. Is FGM OK because its mostly in far off places? I posted because I was upset that a charity which was taking a thoughtful, compassionate approach to trans people was being called ridiculous for that. Lack of compassion for trans people seems to be pretty much global and in one small way this was making things better for them. It's not my child because we're not there, but it is somebody's.
Lady Stark everybodys experiences of unwanted pregnancy are individual on the scale of shitness. For transboys though, pregnancy is something happening to their body which also makes it impossible to pass as what is for them their gender. I guess its like not only being pregnant but at the same time growing a beard, body hair, feeling your voice deepen - in short, appearing as a gender which is not your own. I'd say that's worse.
Pippa its not a question of 'worse' than PIV activity. Many women seeking abortion possibly wish they hadn't engaged at least one act of PIV. The female anatomical nerve endings and so on are still there - I don't think PIV is right off the cards especially for young trans people.
Just if it was always a choice between contraception and abortion there'd probably be fewer abortions all round.
Lurcio Still just because a lot of misogynistic people with other nutty views are also anti-abortion doesn't mean its entirely a woman's rights issue. It doesn't have to be a misogynistic thing. It is an issue for transboys too because they can get pregnant.

If they genuinely think the logo will put off a pregnant trans man they could just drop the logo. I don't think it adds anything.

NUPAS and BPAS have no logo other than the acronyms. Marie Stokes has a door with their name on it.

There you go, job done- no consultancy fee required.

That's a good point lass. How much of my donation is paying for this? Or are they only looking for volunteer designers? In which case the 'boss' is still spending time on it and that costs money.

The time and money spent redesigning the logo bothers me. The time and money spent redesigning logos always bothers me , whether it's a charity or a commercial organisation whose services I pay for.

I barely noticed the logo and am unconvinced that a person with a functioning, impregnated uterus would be put off by it.

The idea that they would dedicate time, energy and resources to this is utterly depressing. It shows how strong and insidious the trans propaganda machine is.

You have a point there. I doubt there is a space on any of their forms with the option of M or F.

I don't think I would worry too much that this action weakens the UN's assessment that Ireland's policy is discriminatory. It remains discriminatory but against women and trans men. Trans men who have not undergone surgery are a specific class in their own right with physiological and health care issues not shared by any non trans men and the policy discriminates against them too.

Laughed out loud at the idea you would be asked (or even not asked on principle) your gender if pregnant.

The world truly has gone mad.

Agree with vestal. Assuming that any TM who is happy with consensual PIV sex won't be upset by accessing a service for women, so the only TM that might need to be considered are those that are pregnant as a result of rape. I don't know any stats, but I'm guessing that's less than one a year. Possibly considerably less as ASN's own comms have suggested "a few" TM have accessed the service - doesn't sound like lots.

So I would like to understand how ASN have decided that that particular incredibly small number of females are a higher priority than (for example) women who might struggle to access their services through lack of Internet access, literacy or English not being their first language. All of which I bet are a higher number than TM who are pregnant as a result of rape.

I'm also struggling a bit with the idea that someone might end up needing to use an abortion service partly because it was 'upsetting' for them to take a contraceptive pill intended for women. More upsetting than a gynaecological procedure!?

Having someone's dick in their vagina should be very, very upsetting for transmen, so I really don't get how they could have an unwanted pregnancy other than by rape.
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Those "transmen" who have PiV and give birth to children because they want to, and still insist that they are male ... well. I can understand why a woman would want to redefine herself as male, to spare herself the hate and harrassment, but it doesn't work that way. It just makes misogynist violence invisible.

I got a similar second reply to you beyond, only instead of saying "It's just a logo" it says, "It's a logo." Which sounds rude and dismissive to me, not better than the first reply.

And instead of the sentence saying. "We talk about women all the time" mine reply says:

"our trans clients (and we've had several) said the same [as clients from the Isle of Man in reference to Ireland] about our exclusive use of the word woman to describe our clients. This is why several years ago we changed the copy on our home page to reflect the fact that we also help trans people."

On their home page they have this:

"We help people from Ireland and Northern Ireland travel to England to access a safe and legal abortion"

And where they use the word "women" they clarify in a foot note with this:

"ASN does not ask clients their gender, nor does gender identity influence grant eligibility."

Why on earth would they ask clients their gender anyway? If they have a client who is pregnant, surely there's no disputing what their biological sex is, so no need whatsoever to discuss their gender identity?

I notice they haven't actually changed their copy with regard to Ireland-only references so the Isle of Man comparison is BS.

I don't see tampons and sanitary towels being rebranded so that they're not just products for women. But who knows, maybe that will come?

Hopefully businesses with profits to make will resist the lunacy. Pissing off the real women when you sell tampons would not be clever.

I'm also struggling a bit with the idea that someone might end up needing to use an abortion service partly because it was 'upsetting' for them to take a contraceptive pill intended for women. More upsetting than a gynaecological procedure!?

There's always a lack of rationality in the trans-arguments.

Is seeking an abortion from a female-centred organisation worse psychologically for a ftt than engaging in piv sexual activity? Or having a monthly reminder of their female anayomy in the form of ovulation and periods? I don't see tampons and sanitary towels being rebranded so that they're not just products for women. But who knows, maybe that will come?

Abortion is, and always will be, a female issue.

Totally agree with you penne

I've had the same response. I think they must be sending the same one to all

The fact that they're not moving entirely to gender-neutral language is reassuring.

I have sympathy for the poster who is parenting a transboy and I think that trans people have enough to cope with, without being subjected to vitriol or being trapped in the middle of an argument.

But I think that services for women should be loudly, proudly for women. Someone suffering enough dysphoria that they can't bring themselves to use women's services must logically require a trans-specific service. It is not reasonable to expect all women's services to change to accommodate a minority, because women still live in a society where they are the disadvantaged sex, and it is important that services like abortion are provided in the name of women's rights.

To reduce women to "people who get pregnant" is to strip us of our identity. It is important for other minority groups to use phrases like "black lives matter" and "gay pride", therefore it is just as important that we promote rights and services for women, using the correct language, or we run the risk of becoming voiceless and lost in a sea of other agendas and concerns.

Trans people can fight for appropriate services and support, but not in the name of "women". Their struggles, whilst obviously severe, do not mimic the struggles of born women, and should not be lumped into the same category or conflated. They are simply parallel to us, and therefore need different kinds of support.

I've had a reply...!

It is actually a very well considered one which directly addresses a lot of points I raised, but has one bizarre bit
"Just like women from the Isle of Man told us that they’d gone to our website and not realised we could help them, our trans clients (and we've had several) said the same about our exclusive use of the word woman to describe our clients"

I cannot believe for 1 femtosecond that a pregnant transman, panicking and hoping to access an abortion has stumbled across the ASN website and thought "Oh crap, it says here that they only offer abortion services to woman. I need to keep looking for a service that offers services to men, as my working vagina, cervix, ovaries and uterus clearly exclude me from the services offered by ASN"

I suspect what has actually happened is that an out-there transactivist has stumbled across the website while looking to be professionally offended, and has written a whinging email about how they would have felt disenfranchised and excluded, and ASN has moved in fear of further action from the trans community.

The full reply is long, so I won't post it, but happy to PM it to anyone who wants it. They do also address my questions about whether this has been through the correct governance and oversight channels from a trustee point of view...

Response #2 is greatly improved :)

Transphobic image courtesy of Nature

Biological female. As in the thing that is produces eggs and is physically capable of becoming pregnant when some biologically male produced sperm is added into the equation.
Nothing to do with gender ID.

if its the one that was put up earlier. I thought that was the whole point of the thread?

The one I put up? Thats the symbol for female. Which anyone requiring an abortion is.

I think a NI-centric rant is appropriate on a thread that is re a charity that does a large chunk of its work in NI