Abortion Support Network- abortion not just a women's issue?

So if adhereing to the Irish law then a transman or transboy could legally have a termination in Ireland?

If you feel like you have the wrong body and you should have a penis, not a vagina, why are you having PIV sex?

That doesn't make any sense to me.

Well, yes. Of course. If I woke up with a penis and testicles, I would then acknowledge that I am male

At the risk of dragging the thread into the realms of magical realism I very much doubt I would. I expect that I would want them removed, as I did with the ganglion which appeared on my wrist once, but a damn sight quicker.

As I've said on other threads, I don't feel a gender. I am a woman, but I don't feel female, and waking up with a penis (magic existing aside) wouldn't be traumatic at all

Really? Not traumatic at all ? I'd be screaming the house down if I woke up with a penis attached to my body.

The exact wording in the Irish Act says:- “woman” means a female person of any age

Ireland also permits self-determination of gender. If a child says they are a boy and not female how can the legislation apply to them?

What I mean is, if you did somehow wake up with a penis do you think that would make you male?

Well, yes. Of course. If I woke up with a penis and testicles, I would then acknowledge that I am male.

I would be unhappy, because it is not something that usually happens to human beings, and I suppose my body changing that way overnight instead of over the course of a couple of years as it does in puberty, would be traumatic, but I would acknowledge reality.

And then go on to be the best feminist ally I can be.

Oh, and, if I woke up with a fully functioning, sperm producing penis, then yes, that would make me male, as that's what male and female means - males produce small, mobile gametes, females produce the large ones. It means nothing more than that.

Very, yes, when it comes to pregnancy, your child's brain has no say - female anatomy completely trumps it - how can it be any other way - if you're pregnant, you are female, no matter what you want to think about it.

As I've said on other threads, I don't feel a gender. I am a woman, but I don't feel female, and waking up with a penis (magic existing aside) wouldn't be traumatic at all.

if you did somehow wake up with a penis do you think that would make you male?

How can I answer that? 1) it wont ever happen and 2) its not something i have ever expected to happen or wish to happen. I am not a transperson and have never felt like my biological sex does not match the gender I identify with.

he doesnt think his female body is enough to make him female

Again, what he thinks doesnt change the facts. His body is female. Female bodies are the only ones who can access abortion services.

*any transman/boy has tried, I'm sure women have.

I'd be very surprised if he was allowed an abortion. I'm not a lawyer, I don't know if anyone has tried.

How he described it to me was something like as he became aware of himself in a body he knew it was not the one he expected it to become. He thought his body would at some point turn into a boys body on its own. If that makes sense. In that way it would be like waking up with a penis. What I mean is, if you did somehow wake up with a penis do you think that would make you male? (I appreciate it's not going to happen, but I do think it was something like that for him). Because he doesn't think his female body is enough to make him female.

Very, the law in Ireland states it is illegal for a woman to have an abortion. Do you think they would allow your child an abortion, or do you think they will base their decision on biology?

Hmm, let's see. When we are talking about a biological issue such as abortion, does gender-feels take priority?

It feels inappropriate to have this discussion around abortion laws though, as it would with something like FGM. Sometimes, only biology matters

How would I wake up with a penis? That is a ridiculous question?

I am female as i was born with the female XX chromosomes as was your son.

J&H only if you think the anatomical sex of his body trumps what gender his brain thinks it is. Its not a choice he's made, it's what he's like. If you (presuming you're a woman) woke up tomorrow with a penis somehow would you then be male?

My son doesn't consider himself female, though he does recognise he has a female body

He doesnt have to consider himself female for it to be a fact.

My son doesn't consider himself female, though he does recognise he has a female body. I'm glad ASN are open to supporting transmen/boys, obviously not arguing with that. As I said, I was posting because people were saying it was ridiculous to change the logo to be less apparently female.

Sorry meant to say "woman" not "women"

If they think it is an issue then I don't think it's for me as a "cis" (yes I know, you all hate the word but for the purposes of this argument I'm going to use it) woman living on the mainland UK, who has never even had to deal with an unplanned pregnancy let alone access an abortion, to tell them they are wrong.

Well, and herm, and lass

What Jackie said.

ASN will know themselves if they have pregnant trans men who have difficulty approaching them , so fair enough to consider the issue .

If they think it is an issue then I don't think it's for me as a "cis" (yes I know, you all hate the word but for the purposes of this argument I'm going to use it) women living on the mainland UK, who has never even had to deal with an unplanned pregnancy let alone access an abortion, to tell them they are wrong.

However, they are a tiny charity serving a small area. If this is an issue, then BPAS, NUPAS and Marie Stopes must have had to deal with it too. ANS could have looked at the websites of those much larger, longer established organisations and followed their lead. I really don't see the need for them to have dealt with it in the way they have.

As Hermione says , the website already refers to men. I assume when drafted originally it meant "men supporting their partners " But as it doesn't actually have the highlighted words it just means "men"

They shouldn't be a priority, but they should be included in people who can be affected by pregnancy.

In what way are they not included by ASN? The symbol recognises their sex which is female and the website states it helps transpeople. In what way is that not being included?

-very I think we are arguing the same point - yes of course transmen can get pregnant because they are female. That's what the "trans" bit means.

The ASN's website already says they support trans men.

What more is necessary?

I will not say that abortion impacts men and women equally . I will not say men can get pregnant. Those are both untrue.

Mephisto I said people's experiences are individual, you can't rank them in groups of 'hardness', how bad it is for you it depends on how you deal with things generally as an individual and the circumstances of the pregnancy which could be wildly varied. Having the 'gender shit' to deal with is something though is something extra that transboys in that situation have to deal with, on top of their individual reaction/circumstances.
Hermoine its not sex neutral but it is gender neutral in that it can and does affect some trans people. I'm not pretending that my son could get pregnant unless he is pretending he is my son and not my daughter, and I'm fairly sure he wouldn't put himself through the shit he gets just to do that. They shouldn't be a priority, but they should be included in people who can be affected by pregnancy.

I find it very insulting that trans people and trans advocates seem to think that traumatic experiences are harder for trans people than non trans people. So a trans teen gets raped and needs a termination- that's worse than a non trans teen who gets raped and needs a termination because they also have gender shit involved? Fuck off.