Abortion Support Network- abortion not just a women's issue?

Even if the woman is suicidal, in one case a refugee who had been a victim of rape was hospitalised for her mental health until the foetus was viable and then either gave birth or had a c section. Just so she couldn't abort the product of her rape.

Yep wanting doctors will induce labour if the feotus dies in the womb but for as long as it has a heart beat they can't do anything to help. It's barbaric

God honestly LucyBabs - even if the baby will be born dead or something? Does the woman have to go through the pregnancy any way and deliver a dead baby or one that will only live for a matter of days or weeks? How horrible.

No wanting abortion is not permitted if the feotus has a severe abnormality or defect.
Abortion is permitted if the woman is about to die and doctors have no choice but to intervene.
If a woman says she is suicidal, however she'll need to be seen by 3 senior doctors and if they determine she is suicidal they may permit an abortion.

That is a great question Kate. It goes to the heart of motivation, I think.

If transactivist lobbying groups are genuinely, wholly motivated to support women (in whatever form they believe that women take), then there should be no problem at all in their tangibly, financially supporting women's charities, or if they feel excluded from women's charities (rightly or wrongly, doesn't matter), by setting up organisations to address the gap that they perceive.

I am not aware that this happens. I am only aware of cases where women's charities have to spend their limited, hard won budgets catering to hypothetical needs, by people who can't take no for an answer (see for example Nixon v. Vancouver Rape Relief, where a transwoman spent 12 YEARS suing a collective run by volunteers because they wanted to work as a rape counsellor and preferred to try to ruin the organisation rather than accept it was not appropriate that they work there).

Actions speak louder than words, I think.

In the case of people like very's child, we have to set the competing interests against each other, it's just the way of the world. It might be upsetting for them to think of themselves as in any way connected to women's biology, but then the women in the position of needing an abortion probably aren't feeling terrific about their women's biology either, and they need to know that they are being supported to help deal with their biological women's stuff. If you start de-sexing it by talking about "people's biology" and not "women's biology", then what impact does that have on them?

Feeling betrayed by your biology is not the prerogative of trans people.

Well quite Kate . The ASN is run by women and funded by donation which I'm guessing are almost if not entirely from women. I'd be astonished if any trans person has volunteered or donated.

But if a person is pregnant, with a foetus in their uterus, then they are female, They have a female body. Soerm has entered their body through their vaginaat the same time that their ovaries have released an ovum. This can only happen to a female. So if a person presents themself as pregnant surely, no matter how they identify, they would ultimately be viewed as female for all intents and purposes because only female bodies can be pregnant.

Or am I confused? I apologise if I've been completely insulting. I think biology must trump self- identification in certain circumstances.

I've read through the 2 Acts. The 2015 Act can't be used to argue that a pregnant trans man could have an abortion.

The 2015 Act , if it were strictly interpreted, potentially makes such a person's situation worse than a pregnant "cis" woman's.

The 2015 Act talks about a change to a "requested sex" . The 2013 Act permits abortion to be performed on a woman meaning a female person of any age.

The 2013 Act makes it an offence to intentionally destroy unborn human life. The 2013 Act permits a woman aka a female person of any age to do so in certain circumstances. If a trans man is a man they are , on a strict interpretation, not protected by the 2013 Act.

VERY I apologise if my comment about laughing at the notion of asking a pregnant person their gender upset you but the fact is only females give birth, xx chromosomes etc.
Anybody can say they are a man, a cat or a rose bush but it's an inescapable fact that only people with the correct genetics can become pregnant therefore it's a question that doesn't or shouldn't needto be asked.

Will they? I mean, if it is illegal, are they even taught how to do it?

Abortions are occasionally carried out. Presumably a surgeon who knows how to do a d&c or an endometrial ablation would be capable of doing a surgical abortion?

Aren't abortions legal in cases of birth defects/sever genetic abnormalities etc? I'm pretty sure they are allowed to carry them out in some circumstances and they can do emergency abortions to save lives if need be (although didn't do so in time in the case of that poor poor Indian (I think she was Indian) woman.

The doctors will of course have the skills and equipment but the admin processes won't be in place.

Will they? I mean, if it is illegal, are they even taught how to do it? I suppose some could be immigrants from the UK, but even then ... why would they have the equipment?

Though I suppose a transboy could use abortion pills if it was early enough, and not be charged with any crime.

I hope this will happen. In fact, I hope that every single Irish woman who needs an abortion will promptly identify out of womanhood and get abortion pills.

Perhaps that would make them see how ridiculous this shit is.

... of course the more likely outcome is that they'd just change the laws to make abortions illegal for "men", too.

"men" I should say. They are clearly women even though I believe in respecting patients gender identities while actually treating them.

I doubt Irish hospitals will be equipped to offer elective abortions to men if they aren't legally allowed for the majority of the population. The doctors will of course have the skills and equipment but the admin processes won't be in place.

well isnt that just fucking great.

Disclaimers re legal interpretation

1. I'm not qualified in Irish law
2. I have not read either statute in full
3. It won't be the first time parliamentary draftspeople have produced crap and contradictory legislation which has to be amended.

I suspect this will be spotted and the 2013 Act amended to refer to something like a "pregnant person, or a person who believes themselves to be pregnant, of any age"

So technically, ASN wouldn't need to support any transboys to procure abortion - they could get one legally in any old hospital.

Actually to be pedantic the Irish Act is called

"The Irish Gender Recognition Act (2015) but permits self-determination of sex

This would mean they could not refuse to allow a pregnant trans man to have an abortion using the arguements which radical feminists use - namely only the female sex can get pregnant as the 2015 Act refers to a requested sex

The trans man has under Irish law changed sex, under the 2015 Act so how can he be a female person of any age under the other Act? The 2013 Act no more applies to him than it does to my son.

Of course a person's physical body determines their sex - gender is a notion inside the mind, not based in empirically verifiable fact. Your child is entirely female, and has a female brain (because it's part of their female body)
They may wish they were male but they are 100%, completely female.

If I woke up with a male body id be confused and distressed. I'd still be me, but with a male body. However this is a false comparison because trans people do not wake up in an opposite sex body one day - they are born one sex and they die the same sex.

Really? Not traumatic at all ? I'd be screaming the house down if I woke up with a penis attached to my body.

Which is why I said magic aside - I'm assuming in this theoretical world where I wake up with a penis this is a standard possibility, not a sudden proof of the existence of magic in this one (because yes, if it happened in this universe, it would be traumatic - not the penis itself, but the fact that it's even possible)

Really? Not traumatic at all ? I'd be screaming the house down if I woke up with a penis attached to my body.

Which is why I said magic aside - I'm assuming in this theoretical world where I wake up with a penis this is a standard possibility, not a sudden proof of the existence of magic in this one (because yes, if it happened in this universe, it would be traumatic - not the penis itself, but the fact that it's even possible)

So if adhereing to the Irish law then a transman or transboy could legally have a termination in Ireland?

Who knows ? The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 defines "woman" as I quoted.

The Irish Gender Recognition Act (2015) says
“Any adult or emancipated minor who demonstrates by an adequate combination of facts that the reference to sex in civil status does not match the one in which they occur and in which they are known can obtain the change

The principles of these facts, can be proven by any means, such as:

That one has publicly stated to belong to the requested sex;
^That one is known as the requested sex amongst family, friends or professional;
That one has obtained a change of name to match the requested sex; ”^

In theory, Jackie.