It was year six prom here yesterday...

We live in a fairly affluent area and we always just have a fun themed party (Hawaiian) in the school hall. No fancy outfits, venues or limos etc. The Kids had a ball.

That's a good point actually - I forgot that they did finish early to 'get ready'

I am really shocked, Kallyno, that in your area girls are given time off school to do make up and hair before the prom - that's appalling and really does underline the expectation that women are there to be decorative and, as you say, bag a mate. In my area the prom is equally about girls having to fulfill beauty/dress/grooming standards but there is less emphasis on having to have a date. It does seem to be all about appearances (costume and transport). Of course, it's right to examine this from a feminist perspective because, among other things, this also means it is much more expensive to send a girl to prom than it is to send a boy.

I've had DD and DS both go through the Year 11 prom circus. DD had to have floor length evening gown (very hard to do that on the cheap) whereas DS could get away with cheap suit or smart trousers/blazer combination. He walked to prom with a group of friends all dressed similarly - girls in heels and evening gowns cannot really walk down the road. There was a lot of pressure for the girls to have extra grooming services - hair/make-up/nails etc which we resisted but, obviously, boys did not have to worry about this.

The whole thing sends a clear message about what women are valued for, what expectations are placed on women's available time and money and even what restrictions there are on women's freedom to travel. And a clear message about how flexible the same expectations are for men.

Erm, is this not FEMINIST chat? Surely this is exactly where stuff is looked at through a feminist lens?!

And my post was not about "putting on a pretty frock to go to a dance". It was about the increasing popularity of prom-style leaving celebrations and why it's an issue.

Your post just struck me as so utterly joyless. As if putting on a pretty frock to go to a dance has to be analysed from a feminist perspective (and presumably found wanting) As if the only scenario is the one you describe.

LassWiTheDelicateAir: not sure what your point is? You describe something distinctly less prom-like than is being discussed here. Yes, lots of folk like dressing up, myself included, but at the prom-like proms there is an enormous pressure on the girls to dress up in a very particular way and engage in a particular sort of behaviour.

My daughter had her yr 6 prom last week. She wore a pretty dress and flat sparkly shoes, I thought she looked lovely but minus the fake tan and professional hair do and make up looked almost under dressed when we arrived. Tbh the whole week was so highly charged with plays, church service, leavers assembly called the final farewell and the prom plus bbq. Parents and kids all seemed overwhelmed. I admit I am a miserable bastard but I think the whole prom/leavers experience varies from school to school.

My son's leavers' ball bore no resemblance to what you describe. They got dressed up in party dresses, dress kilts and the odd dinner suit. Newsflash some people like getting dressed up. They didn't take dates and no one was elected king or queen. What's wrong with that ?

Proms seem to be the thing out here in the antipodes also. My daughter had one for leaving primary and for leaving high. I found both verging on excruciating - they are so heteronormative. First there's the getting a date, then there's the dress discussions, the hair appointments, etc. DD's high school gave the girls (not the boys) half a day off school before the prom for hair/ make up time.

To the poster who wrote (can't remember username and if I go back a page to find it my iPad will empty the comments box):
"I'll stand by what I said about "lots of women revel in this stuff". The question for feminists is why it's true, when it's clear that there are alternatives and some girls and women are choosing them. But I'd bet that over in the "Style and beauty" section of Mumsnet, you wouldn't be seeing much argument."

Choices aren't made in a vacuum. None of us are able to shed off our socialisation in order to make an entirely free choice. Just because women and girls choose something, does not make it benign from a feminist perspective. Proms are like mini weddings and teach girls about how to ready themselves for the work of finding a mate and that they are most successful at this (think prom king and queen) if they play by the rules and use their appearance to bag the highest status mate. Sickening, imo.

I think a formal 'prom' with ballgowns, dates, limos etc at that age is wrong for lots of reasons (some feminist, some money, some just wtf). DD's school did a leavers day out towards the end of term so they all got a fun day out to remember. Then they had a special assembly on the last day. Mums organised a 'not organised at all just turn up with a picnic' more the merrier picnic in the park at the end of the school day.

A friend's DC's school has something that they call a leavers prom but actually it's just a disco for year 6 only. Children just go in 'party clothes' (some wear dresses and make-up but not many).

I think it's bad enough that the 'prom' has become a money pit in UK senior schools. Lots of the senior school children round here get really dressed up and hire limos (shared so not quite the same cost as individual but still..) even though most of them live within walking distance. I know I'm going to have a quandry when DD is older about either making a stand against this foolishness or zipping it so DD isn't left out.

We had our final assembly/prize giving and then had a buffet in the school hall with our parents and teachers. The highlight was being allowed to go in the staff room

We had a leavers' ball at secondary school - it was black tie (not the big prom dresses, but most people wore long evening dresses) and people did put their hair up/wear makeup but we were 17/18. I think there were some limousines, mainly because people arrived in groups.

If you'd done all that at 11 I don't think it would be as special when you were older.

DS1's year they just went to the park round the corner and climbed trees.

I live in the US - there's no such thing as a prom for that age kids. Prom is for high school kids only.

When I taught in the UK we used to have a leavers 'ball' which was the school hall tarted up for an evening.

I'm loving the idea of a beach party or BBQ - far more suitable.

Really dislike the who.e Yr6 prom thing. We have a leavers versus staff rounders match and BBQ followed by a disco- fun and no pressure on anyone.

I'm fortunate to live in a very naice prosperous type of place.

Various friends posted pictures of the end of primary leavers dance.

Girls:

Pretty age appropriate dresses (not ball gowns at all)
Curls, fancy braids and (non professional up dos
A tiny bit of lip gloss
Sparkly ballet flats

Boys:
Smart shirts/jackets/trousers:the occasional tie
Smart shoes/ an occasional converse
Rampant hair gel

Not a limo in sight

All looked very happy, age appropriate and fun.

And if it's not and she wants to go are you going to disapprove and put her off?

There is a happy medium. My son's school had a leaver's ball at the end of what we call 6th Year (age17/18) They dressed up- boys wore dinner suits or formal kilts, girls wore party dresses. It marked the end of school and end of exams. No limousines were involved.

I'd bet that over in the "Style and beauty" section of Mumsnet, you wouldn't be seeing much argument.

I don't think many over in S&B would agree with dolling 11-year-olds up like that either.

Argh my cousin, easily the poorest member of the family living in one of the most deprived area of the country hired a limo for her make up wearing daughter.... Year 6.

I have to say it's pretty crass and definitely an unwanted American import.

I'll stand by what I said about "lots of women revel in this stuff". The question for feminists is why it's true, when it's clear that there are alternatives and some girls and women are choosing them. But I'd bet that over in the "Style and beauty" section of Mumsnet, you wouldn't be seeing much argument.

ABunchOfCups, your daughter seems like a very perceptive girl. Could there be an anti-prom for those who aren't interested in the prom? But I suppose that would be taken as a declaration of war.

I'm so glad you started this thread OP, it was dds y6 prom last week and she didn't go. I'm also from a poor area and a fortune has been spent on limos etc.

It was organised by the parents in a workmans club with a disco, dd was initially looking forward to it but when organisers started going on to them about how the girls will look beautiful in their ball gowns she changed her mind about going.

Dd said that all the girls were having fake tan, nails, make up hair etc done as well, some were taking "dates" and that she had been getting funny looks and told not to be silly when she said she didn't have a ball gown or make up. Not from the other children, but from adults, the organisers, her friends Mums etc.

I told dd that some girls might be wearing ball gowns, but that some won't, dds best friend is similar to her and she probably wouldn't be doing make up etc, but that either is fine. I also told she absolutely doesn't have to be with a "date". Dd was insistent that yes, all the girls are doing the ball gown, her friend doesn't want to but her mum said she won't let her go if she doesn't etc and that the prom doesn't sound like fun anymore anyway, that she didn't want to make fuss and she'd rather just not go.

Her body is changing and shes very uncomfortable with people commenting on her looks and she said that the focus of the prom has shifted from having fun with friends, to what girls are wearing what and how pretty they will look, she didn't want me speaking to the organisers as it would single her out further.

I'm mainly friends with the parents of boys in dds class, and they were not sending their son in tuxedos, dd said a boy who's not in tuxedo will not get the same judging as a girl not in make up and ball gown will. A couple of the boys didn't want to go because it didn't sound fun and they didn't want "dates" so dd felt better at not being the only one not going.

Prom photos appeared online last week and dd was correct, every girl had full on make up, fake tan, false nails, hair done and proper ball gowns, lots of class photo of the girls posing slightly sideways with one hand on head, one hand on hip, pouting etc. Only four boys from dds class went, and appear in only one photo and that's with their "date" Lots of comments about the girls being beautiful young women, how pretty they are, how the dress suits their shape etc etc

As much as I wanted dd to part of the prom, I think she made the right choice in not going, I overheard a convo some parents as they were near me in playground on the following Monday and some of the mums were absolutely horrid about the girls. Saying one girls make up looked "tarty", one of the girls danced like a stripper and the Dad's all had to look away, nasty comments about other mums letting them do that.

It's hard to see her struggle with puberty and a year ago, she'd have to that prom in a tuxedo and not given a shit as she was confident in herself and I'm worried that the more her body changes, the more confidence she loses. I'm not sure how to help her keep that confidence, I don't know anyone who's dd is going through the same to ask for advice, so if anyone has any suggestions I'd be grateful. 90 % of the time! this stuff isn't an issue and she's happy and confident! but I worry that as she gets older, the pressure to be feminine will increase. Someone tell me it won't, please.

You really can't say this is our misogynistic society at work. Women revel in it.

Or are merely expected to do it in order to avoid censure from family and friends. Informal social control is still social control.

"you see the boys arrive in nice jeans and a smart shirt. The difference in expectations is massive."

It's preparation for weddings, as was recently mentioned here. The bride gets to do immense amounts of stuff (and let's not forget her mother's participation) and the groom has done an OK job if he polishes his shoes.

You really can't say this is our misogynistic society at work. Women revel in it.

The 2 primary schools round here, one has a prom, the other has a disco. The kids have more fun at the disco, but the parents spend more money on the prom. Some of the outfits are quite extreme, and hair, make-up, fake tans, etc seem very over the top for 11 yos. Especially when you see the boys arrive in nice jeans and a smart shirt. The difference in expectations is massive.

I'm very glad my DDs go to the school who stick with a disco in the school hall.