Women losing custody of ambition

This is a very good talk. I particularly like her pointing out the trade off between likability and ambition, I have definitely seen it.

The other thing I have seen plenty of is nice guy misogyny. It was not just men with SAHW actually it was usually men who in spite of having a WOHW still traditional division of childcare/housework responsibilities existed as per the description of the factory woman in the ted talk. They are nearly worse IMHO. They are the ones who are quite happy to see the break down of traditional roles where it benefits men I.e providing for the family.

"would be horrified to think they had made a woman feel excluded or slighted in any way" I'm sure they would be horrified to be perceived as excluding women. I'm not sure that they would be horrified enough to actually change their behaviour though.

I'm quite surprised people thought Vestal's experience were out of the ordinary or unlucky. I can name men I know with all of those traits. Several times over. I don't think I've got a particularly unusual bunch of friends/acquaintances/colleagues. I mean the sexual entitlement example - 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted/raped so that type of behaviour clearly isn't unusual. Neither is mansplaining your feelings to you/minimising porn (hell women do that on a regular basis on MN)/minimising the effects of sexism (happens every time a woman opens her mouth on the internet about sexism)/unwanted opinions on abortions (blow me down with a feather on that one - just look at the US if you want to see men telling women what they should be doing with their bodies!).

Thanks for your insights Samba - I didn't see that documentary but it doesn't sound surprising!

samba1a
Thank you, it is very interesting to hear what it what you have to say from the basis of your actual experience.

This thread has reminded me of the Grayson Perry documentary on 'Masculinity" a few months ago - (no doubt it was discussed on here). When presented with the artwork of a huge phallus which Perry had created to symbolise what he saw as the essence of the corporate world, nearly all the men (city bankers) featured in the documentary were quite insulted.

I myself am one of the (very few) women who work at a senior level in the kind of environment depicted in this documentary. I am mainly London based. I am now late-40s, in a relationship for the last few years, but no children - and I now realise that this has been the compromise of surviving in my chosen field at this level. My male colleagues are pretty much exactly as described above - highly educated, very 'gentlemanly' and would be horrified to think they had made a woman feel excluded or slighted in any way. But I think the intransigence that pervades the top echleons of the corporate sector is basically to do with the level of drive and singlemindedness required to get there - being prepared to work way 'above and beyond' and not to worry if it means treading on some toes as you go. It is for this reason that its almost exclusively men at this level. Yes they generally do have wives who, despite their own qualifications, don't work, but I don't sneer at these women in any way. These men are high-maintenance and it takes a certain kind of wife or partner to be able to deal with them. I know this from my own experience - it took me years to find a partner who can cope with me!

I remember when a local private boys school was going to begin taking in girls one reason given was that it would help mitigate against laddish behaviour and the boys thinking it was cool not to work hard - so bringing the girls would drive the standards up.

I could not help feeling the girls were being used for the boys' sake.

Well that's basically saying, "Well of course we could let women into certain positions because we're all so PC after all, but if it means we have to change our default mode of behaviour, then we can't really be bothered, come to think of it".

Vestal - I do agree with your point about how much is just "assumed". I can't think of any men I know that would presume to have have strong views on something like abortion though - unless this is something that's affected them or they have particular religious views. Then again, I never really tend to ask these questions, as you say.

Chunky - I think you basically sum it up. I asked DH last night why there are no women on the board in his organisation. He looked slightly perplexed as to why I was taking this line of questioning , but basically said that there are certainly no barriers to anyone's progression etc - also that they have done a lot to improve flexible working hours and extended maternity pay for women. He then went on to say that having women in the board would be good for some of them (meaning certain male colleagues of his) because they would have to tone it down a bit. When I asked what he meant by "tone it down" he said - "Well, you know, you can't really be kicking off or raising your voice too much when there's women in the room"

So there it is - another invisible barrier under the guise of "nice men" behaviour!

I feel encouraged by the women political leaders. Even when I do not agree with all they do, I admire them. I grew up never thinking for a moment I could do what men do. It never even occurred to me that I could. Yet here they are doing so well, in their own way - and better than men it often seems - the Queen included, even without drinking and golf.

The concepts described here really struck a chord with me.

In the past I have had discussions with colleagues (male and female) about why although at least 50% of the junior staff were female hardly any of the most senior positions were held by women. Most people seemed aghast at the suggestion that somehow women might be disadvantaged in the workplace. The general consensus of opinion seemed to be that female staff were given the same opportunities as male staff but just chose not to taken them. The fact that none of the women in senior positions had children was actually used by one (male) colleague to back up this idea- he claimed that women had the same opportunities but that when they had children a lot of them chose to prioritise their families and that this is nothing to do with any discrimination at work. In my opinion what was actually going on was that women were allowed ( by the men in charge) to succeed whilst ever they were playing by the same rules as the men (ie. career before family, no other responsibilities, aggressively pushing to the top etc).

As espresso3 pointed out, it is interesting that in many workplaces all the career development/team building seems to focus around male traits. I remember many events based on motor racing, golf, football, heavy drinking etc. Whilst many women clearly enjoy these things too it was very clear that these were really days out for the boys and the 'girl' joining the party needed to prove that she was just as much a 'lad'.

I also think it's interesting what this video shows us about women being complicit in our mistreatment. As I've said above, I know lots of women who believe that workplace sexism is a thing of the past but even more women who do all (or nearly all) the domestic work/nursery and school runs etc despite their husbands working in a similar job.

I like the 'cinderella' theory someone posted about too- almost everyone one of my married friends with children (myself included) actually married a man with a similar level of education or who was slightly less educated than themselves. But now that we are all middle aged with children the women are SAHM or work part time whilst the men work full time and have progressed in their careers more than their wives. I think that what happens to women's career prospects/real choices when they have children is really concerning.

Vestal - I'm truly sorry to hear you've encountered such a range of b**ds. I hope you can find someone who shifts your expectations.

Thank you, that's very nice of you, but ... thing is, I really don't think they were so exceptionally bad. I think they were rather average. Some of them a bit socially awkward, and desperate for a girlfriend, but average. That's the problem.

If I could tell myself that they were all assholes, and I just had exceptionally bad luck, well, then things might be different. But it seems those are the guys I would have to put up with if getting heterosexually partnered.

("It is okay for abortion to be technically illegal and only unpunished in specific circumstances, because I like to feel morally superior and don't care if it is much easier to take your bodily autonomy away because of this" - guy is even related to me. Happily married. Nice person in everyday life. Still doesn't think his wife and daughters should have their human rights written in the constitution.)

To be honest, I think most women wouldn't even notice if a guy behaved like this, or held opinions like this.

I suspect that expecting 100% loyalty to me and therefore to all women as far as the law is concerned, makes me rather an exception than the norm.

And how many SAHMs really ask their husband whether he promotes women to top positions in his business? I suppose most just assume that their husband isn't a misogynist and of course gives everyone totally equal opportunities wherever he is in charge.

Thanks Amai. Yes I do remember your previous thread - the Dh is ex-military isn't he?

Good luck to your children.

Place marking. I think I will be watching and nodding.

Hi Espresso - I'm not actually the OP on this thread, but it looks like you believe I am the one "sleepwalking into becoming a Cinderella". No I'm not offended at all - I've been called far worse. I think you may have come onto a thread I started a month or two ago, after someone compared me to a prostitute because I'm financially dependent on my husband. Is this what you're remembering?

By a "Cinderella", do you mean when she was in her "skivvy" phase or later on when she became a "true princess?'"

Well yes, there have been many times when I have felt like a skivvy to DH and our 3 kids - most days in fact!

Some friends and I have collectively had the term "Chelsea princesses" thrown at us. "What do they do all day?" - that kind of thing.

As to whether I'm "sleepwalking" or not - that's a far trickier question. I liked what KindDog said about how our identities can't escape some level of comparison to our own mothers, grandmothers, etc. I grew up in an extremely rural part of Southern Italy. I wouldn't say we were living quite hand-to -mouth, but not far off. When life is very simple but quite tough within a family unit, people tend to stick to specific roles and because everyone is working so hard there isn't that much time to worry about it. So my mother and my grandmother are my role models I guess - but whether that means I too have sleepwalked into becoming a SAHM in very different circumstances, I'm not sure.

DH may well have certain expectations of me as his wife, but I can say with certainty that he has far more expectations for himself and the role he feels hard-wired to fulfil as a father and husband. It's not only women who feel pressure of social conditioning (newsflash!)😆 You clearly move in the corporate world and I'm sorry you feel excluded by a certain type of men. I would feel the same.

I can imagine that, from the outside, DH could be perceived in this way, which is why the idea of the "nice guy misogynist" got me thinking and led me to post on this thread. DH would appear as that kind of "alpha" type - he enjoys the company of other men like him, etc and this is the self-perpetuating sphere he largely moves in. But when you get to know them, they are just as insecure as the rest of us tbh. Of course they are.

I actually feel that, despite appearances, I am living a quite authentic life because I know what my motivations are, if that makes sense?

Singing sixpence - I thought your description of "emotional work" was brilliant and definitely something I can relate to. The problem can be overcome though - mostly at least! DH is fully aware that I do not need a blow by blow account of his latest boxing or paragliding spectacular or whatever - I just need to know that he's not in A&E and what time will he be in. So he tends to keep the full / blown details for somebody who may be interested.

Vestal - I'm truly sorry to hear you've encountered such a range of bds. I hope you can find someone who shifts your expectations.

It's so alluring though - it's only because I adore my job and I'm very stubborn (and pretty lucky) that I've managed to hang onto my career. Even given that, I've had the thought that our kids would be better off if I stopped my (freelance, high-earning from home, around commitments but need a nanny) job and focussed on family, it would be easy for me to stop, but it's just too risky - not because I think DP will leave me, but because if something bad happens, the stakes are just so high.

I've pointed out the descriptions on porn sites, and am getting through that reading those clearly illustrates porn isn't OK

My DP is fine about who earns the most (although there is healthy competition), we're both fairly anti-social, and I'm thick-skinned enough that I never took on presents/cards for his family (despite MIL's attempts - and I do love my MIL - she is quite formidable although different to me), he does probably 25% of the general work of running a house (ie. He cooks a fair bit, sometimes puts the washing on, and every couple of months does a big sweep up-cleaning)

He does support me in my career - but - even then, when it came to making compromises in his, he wouldn't even change hours to accommodate drop offs or pickups.

Out of my sisters, I have the most equal relationship, out of my friends, I'm well up there, I am doing OK, yet, still, I feel the pull of SAHM, and DP doesn't feel SAHF at all.

Once we solve that, we'll be 80% of the way to equality I think

Vestal it sounds like you've become very disillusioned by men and the barriers are now well up. Singing I think you put it really well. At least neither of you are in danger of sleepwalking into becoming a Cinderella like I suspect the OP may have (sorry Amai - I mean no offence to you personally, it's more about what I described above).

To the posters who say you have not been able to find a man who treats you as an equal, do you men equal as in "the same", or equal as in "equal but different?"

I'm not sure what you mean by the same, since a given man in a relationship with you isn't treating himself as if he were another person iyswim? But generally I just want someone to put the same effort into making the relationship a positive, happy thing for me in the same way that I do for them.

So my biggest bugbear is with emotion work; the business of making other people feel happy, validated, appreciated, supported, heard, cared for, like they matter to you and to the world. There is a lot of research that shows that women do this work more or less constantly when they are with other people and especially their male partners/husbands but men just don't really bother with it on more than a fairly superficial level and seem to regard it as something that is inherent to womanhood. They expect women to make these efforts for them and feel entitled to receiving the benefits but they don't seem to have any understanding that for the relationship to be happy and satisfying for both partners then both partners need to do these things.

I suppose to me this is always most apparent in conversation where I always seem to be the one asking all the questions, showing all the interest in the guy; picking up on his comments and asking him more about the things which he has an interest in and clearly wants to talk about. Laughing at his jokes and being warm and positive about the things he feels warm and positive about. Making all the right noises being supportive and caring when things aren't going well for him. Spending hours listening to his gripes about work and his family etc. And then when you need the same level of support the conversation is shut down almost immediately. They just change the subject because they don't want the mental effort of being supportive or even listening to your experiences. You get "oh that's a shame, did I tell you I was thinking of buying a new car.?.." And then fully expect you to want to have a conversation about why they want that particular new car and when they're thinking of getting it and behave all baffled when you get upset about this. It happens again and again and again in almost every relationship I've been in and I see the same thing happening in my friends' relationships. Even when I'm out with my friends and their male partners the men lap up all the attention that the women give them, answering questions about their lives, jobs, thoughts, opinions but they rarely give any of that attention back. They don't ask the women round the table about their jobs, lives, opinions, thoughts beyond a bit of token interest and when they do ask they either don't take any interest in the answer given and get straight back to talking about themselves or they tell them that their thoughts and opinions are wrong. Rant over!

Well no one needs self definition through relationships. One can be perfectly happy without one, and indeed it's infinitely preferable to bieng in a wrong relationship.

Sounds like you've had some really bad experiences with men, Vestal

To the posters who say you have not been able to find a man who treats you as an equal, do you men equal as in "the same", or equal as in "equal but different?"

Uh, obviously I would not expect of a man to treat me as if I didn't have a female body - going to buy me chocolate when I have period cramps would be highly appreciated.
As would be doing the lion's share of housework during and some months after a hypothetic pregnancy.

However, all too often "equal but different" means just "not equal at all." In most sentences that are in any way about social justice, the things that come before a "but" can be disregarded as they are a lie. (See also: "I am not a racist, but ...")

To give you an impression, things that men who I know are married, who wanted to get in a relationship with me, of even with whom I wanted to get into a relationship before they did it, did:

• being against a full legalisation of abortion because of their delicate moral feelings (My stance on this is "no uterus, no opinion" - and also that full legalisation is the only option that acknowledges women's personhood)
• sulk because his wife earns more than he does
• trying to mansplain my own feelings to me, despite not being a professional psychologist nor knowing all the facts
• trying to force me to be intimate with him, or at the very least to let him stay the night (which I did not want) by drinking too much alcohol to drive back to his own home (I didn't give in, he had to drive or stay in a hotel.)
• being of the opinion that sexist advertisements were totally okay, and had no negative effect on the lives of women, and sticking to this opinion in spite of being told otherwise by an actual woman (me).
• being of the opinion that porn was totally okay and had no negative effect on the lives of women ... et cetera, see above.

And those are only some examples.

In fact, I have zero experiences with men respecting that, because I am a woman, I am different from men in some ways, and may require things that men do not require.
Men demand that I pretend I am the same as them whenever it happens to be more convenient for them: They demand that I not feel insulted by sexist advertising and porn, because they, as men, are totally okay with it "objectification" of their bodies. They demand that I feel comfortable with having a male stranger in my house because they are comfortable with having a female stranger in their house. Et cetera.

I am tired of it. Perhaps there is one man out there who would treat me as equal and would also be attractive to me and I to him, but I don't have the energy to look for a needle in a haystack.

That was a really interesting video, thanks for posting.

It puts a name to something I'd only recently realised had happened in my own life. It doesn't answer what to do about it, but identifying it is certainly a step in the right direction.

Lurky. I see this all the time - the inbuilt expectation that these men have that their wives will become SAHMs while their careers will continue - not only uninterrupted, but supported by their wives. However "charming and respectful" they may seem on the surface, these men have a way of getting what they want. I work on the periphery of a pack of very "nice guy misogynists" - all with the wife and kids package at home. They say all the right things, of course they do, but the exclusion is still there - corporate "team building" days take the form of driving racing cars / other "alpha" type events. The effect of it all is just as insidious.

Thanks for posting this, Thread - a really interesting watch. Love the comment about "Men have just learned to hide sexism better." The nice guy misogynist is a really useful concept - and how fascinating that you can actually measure difference in the way men married to career women manage women compared to those married to women who've given up their careers.

I remember reading a great article probably about 10 years back about some social scientists who'd done a longitudinal study of married couples. Most studies take "snapshots" and conclude that men "marry down" i.e. marry women less educated, less well paid, etc. This is the impression you'd get if you looked at the average couple in say their mid thirties or early forties - she has an undergrad degree, he has an MBA he did day release while working, he's a few grades higher up the ladder than she is. This longitudinal study looked at how that situation came about and discovered that at the time of marriage both men and women tended to have equal qualifications and equal incomes - the differences set in later. I remember one of the researchers came up with a brilliant one-liner to describe the results: "it's not that prince charming marries Cinderella, prince charming marries princess charming and turns her into Cinderella."

www.vox.com/2016/7/7/12105830/nettie-stevens-genetics-gender-sex-chromosomes

Here is a huge example of what can happen. The woman who discovered sex chromosomes was not given credit for it.

"mean" sorry - not men