General Trans Thread Part 3

Yes, I thought it was a particularly self centred, almost narcissistic, article.

Do we know Sophie's orientation? Is she another TW who thinks she's entitled to lesbians' bodies?

Anybody seen this yet? Trans people could 'face rape charges' if they don’t declare sexual history, warns trans activist (link to Independent, some very good comments underneath).

Transactivists now want the laws around rape and consent changed because “By forcing transgender people to disclose their history to prospective partners the law is not only infringing their human rights it’s also reinforcing the bigoted idea that trans people are in some way abhorrent and something that people need to be warned about.”

Parenthesis fail in the last sentence - DC2 waking up and yelling for me

This is depressing. I have been mulling over it, related to the other thread on the trans* - feminism clash.

I was out yesterday with DC. There was another group at a nearby table with three MtT people. I am sorry, but, in the nicest possible way, it was such an affected, external caricature of womanhood by two of them and the third was less dolled up and loud, but had a very deep male voice. So, this caused me some reflection too on the liberal question. Apologies for mixing threads.

Because to me, I think fine, if men wish to externally present as women in public space. It pisses me off, because my actual experience of being a woman bears no relation to that external presentation, but, in a liberal context, their presentation as women is not actually harming me (or is it?)

Because that is the question, freedom comes with responsibility in the classical liberal sense. It is not about who has the most power to make their voices heard (neoliberal).

But anyway, it was the bathroom issue that bothered me the most, because I did think thank goodness I have taken DC to the loo before we went to eat. I very much doubt any of them would have attacked us, so that was not the issue. But somehow it felt like it would have been invasive, which is what I am trying to figure out.

I think the point is that classical liberalism was about access to public space; whereas the issue here is about access to sexed private space. shins upthread is right to point out the historical link. And bodily functions are private (and women's bodies and reproductive role) are historically and culturally at the root of inequality.

But can't we change the law back again? Don't they do that in America all the time when the Reds and the Blues finally kick the other side out of office? It must happen here from time to time? There does seem to be growing awareness but it's so frustrating not knowing how widespread it is since you just can't discuss this easily in public.

I wonder if some kind of tide has turned there

The trouble is that the law is about to change to allow any man who self-identifies as a woman to access all female-only spaces. So, even if the tide has turned, it will come too late.

Yes. Or toilets at all, like in rural India.

It also seems to ignore that in places where women don't have access to single sex toilets, they're fighting for them.

It was completely and unforgivably ignorant of the historical link between access to safe separate toilet facilities and women's access to hitherto male-dominated public space.

Yes, I saw the guardian article too. What really alarmed me was the way it kept referring to women being "physically weaker" as if this was some sort of Victorian sexism, branding us as weak and feable when we were in fact the equal to men. No acknowlegement of the fact that women are demonstrably weaker, physically, for a whole host of reasons. I kind of felt it was paving the way for future arguments about women doing less well at sports for cultural reasons, because they just don't have the same confidence as men. Worrying. Very worrying.

Some of the supportive comments are from people who support the right of anyone to use the bathroom matching their gender identity. They clearly genuinely don't see trans people as being the sex that they are.

Ok, no worries, I'll try and cut back on questions of that kind. I just assumed people wouldn''t answer anything they didn't want to.

I'm not a genderist. I'm very much gender critical but I think there are areas in which there are arguments for making allowances or exceptions for the benefit of trans people. I have also seen members say in other parts of the site that they don't feel they can discuss certain issues or raise certain points on here and I think if we're going to make people more aware of what's going on we have to be open to discussion on points we are ourselves not convinced of. Which means finding some common ground on some points from time to time.

I wonder if some kind of tide has turned there. The most recommended comments are the critical ones. I'm appalled that columnists can continue to propagate the lie that women don't get attacked in bathrooms but trans people do. It's bizarre.

Gosh, amazing that things which aren't unthinkingly pro trans are allowed to remain!

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/11/gender-bathrooms-transgender-men-women-restrooms

Some great eloquent comments below the Guardian's latest bullshit article and not deleted either.

(I guess it's best to stay safe online and my daughter's age isn't important)

Sixpence, I do feel that your questions are intrusive as well. Most of us are very reluctant to give any information. In my case it is also coupled with the fact that I have a very violent ex-partner and I don't want him to be able to track me down.

It isn't any one individual question, Sixpence.

It is the cumulative impact of you asking where posters live, if they are on Twitter and who they interact with there, if they are in a FB group, where else on the Internet do they talk about things, which one, can you join the same one and so on.

Coupled with you referring to gender critical posters as 'we' to new posters, as if you're one, which I think is misleading when you are blatantly pro genderism.

How is knowing someone's daughter's age personal information almond? Whatever age she is there will be several million other girls the same age and the OP can give an age that's out by a year or two if she wants, most people on here do that to protect their identity or else they can just say they'd rather not give it at all. Any other information I've asked for has just been to get more of a context to what a poster has been saying and other people have chimed in to say they understand why I've asked. But I'll stop asking anything "personal" if it's worrying other people too?

Sixpence, I'm really uncomfortable with the way you keep asking posters for personal information.

How old is your DD shins? I would feel the same if I had a child in that situation. But I think it at least makes people question what's going on.
Who knows where we'll be in 10 years time. Maybe gender fluid people will be able to compete in both the male and female categories and it will be the same people in both races? No women in sports at all :(.

On another note, I have been reading the blogs and writings of a few gender critical trans people and found transy wansy's. She is a young transwoman who writes very well and is very pro-woman but struggling with the way she feels she is being treated over her plans to have surgery, by people in the feminist community. She is angry about how she has stuck up for women, many of whom are now telling her or implying that surgery will be self mutilation and self hatred. This just makes me so sad. Surely feminists should support everyone's right to bodily autonomy? Surgery can and does work for many people who have body dysphoria and many go on to live happy lives after surgery. She has clearly thought things through and is intelligent and self aware. Of course it might turn out to be the wrong decision, there is that risk with everything but I am sad that she feels she has been shown so little kindness and support. Does anyone else think some feminists could do with being less judgmental about the decisions of transwomen when it comes to their own bodies? I know transwomen are male and not a radical feminist's primary concern but when these people are our allies should we maybe get behind their decisions, whether or not we thing they're right or wrong? I'm guessing some on here are always against reassignment surgery?

There seems to be more of a focus on intersex, but the recent Olympics Committee ruling opened the playing field to a truly scary extent - anyone can take hormones for a year after all. That Wangyot story really angered me - he is clearly a young man with a penis and no breasts no matter how long he grows his hair, how dare he take places away from girls? I suppose I feel particularly strongly about the sports issue because my daughter is a very talented budding athlete who runs twice as fast as girls her age. She's very competitive and has a lot of ambitions - I can't bear to think that she might be running against boys in a few years, it would crush her.

The book represents a wide range of feminists - academics, grass roots campaigners and so on.

Spiritual women with a focus on the environment and female experiences have always been a big part of the feminist movement. They create lots of gatherings, art and music.

I don't think there is anything odd about it.

It's a good article. I saw a similar one somewhere else, ostensibly about intersex and transgender issues but focusing mostly on the intersex issue. I wonder if that's due to concerns about possible accusations of transphobia or if it's just that several intersex athletes are quite high profile at the moment? Do we know if there will be any transgender athletes at the Olympics?

Thanks shins - I'll go and have a look.

I didn't mean to imply there was anything morally dubious about the editor. And I have no issue with wacky people. I suppose it just seems unusual for a book that contains the writings of many academics but I agree, it's great that people are speaking out, and to be applauded when they are brave enough to do so using their real names and identities.

The main author/editor seems to be an "ordained elder Priestess, seasoned ritualist," and an "award winning pioneering goddess-centered folk musician, mountain dulcimer artist" amongst other things. Which makes me immediately slightly suspicious! What are everyone's thoughts?

Being an "ordained elder Priestess" may sound wacky to an atheist, but it's not ethically wrong, and from my point of view it is not more wacky than being a Christian priest or preacher, so there is that.

To me, believing in an unprovable goddess whose non-existence can't be proven likewise, is several levels saner than believing that men are women (which obviously contradicts the reality before our eyes). I've always found atheist genderists to be the height of irony.

I'll contribute if/when I have some money to spare. Would like to get the ebook version.