female identifying only area at Glastonbury.

Trying to move the goalposts from your initial canard about terrorism to the unrelated subject of generally cruel behaviors is really quite weak.

Interesting post, Clangersarepink.

And very well mansplained it was to. Did you read the bit where I said that I get the Schroedinger's rapist argument, and that I neither disagree nor think that it is sexist?

grim

Forgive the physics lesson but it is relevant.

Despite common understanding, the original Schrödinger's Cat thought experiment had an unquantified probability involved, so there is not a 50/50 chance the cat is alive or dead. Also, the point of the thought experiment is NOT that there's no way to know whether the cat is alive or dead without opening the box (though it's correct). The real point of the thought experiment is this: because the release of poison relies on a Quantum event the cat is actually, very literally, both dead and alive at the same time. Opening the box forces reality to shift from the Quantum world to the Classical world and makes the Universe decide the cat's fate. Scientific experiments have proved that, in simplified version of this, the experiment holds true.

Now, grim, this is the important bit. In real world experiments, the likelyhood of finding a "dead cat" is entirely dependent upon the probability of the deadly random event taking place. Whilst the principle holds for any probability between 1 and 0, in the real world we only care when the probability is of a value that impacts upon us. Schrödinger's Pet Shop with a probability of deadly radioactive decay of 1 event per cat per hour will go out of business. 1 event every million years will do fine.

So, whilst you are logically correct, in the real world it doesn't make sense to treat terrorists and rapists as equivalent. The probability of any particular woman being raped is high enough for it to be a genuine concern, the probability of any particular person being blown up by a terrorist is almost zero. The woman's fear of rape is rational, the Islamophobe's fear of terrorism is completely out of proportion to the risk.

As for comparison with racism and ethical equivalence... the comparison you're looking for is this:

In America, is it wise for a young black man to consider the possibility that a white cop in a black neighbourhood will mistake him for a criminal and shoot him?

Does answering "yes" mean he's a racist? Possibly. Does being racist against white cops increase the young man's chance of getting home at night safely? Yes, because some white cops are also racists. So, who's racism is the real problem here, that of the young black man trying to get home or that of the cop with the gun looking for someone to shoot? And can we fix the white cop's racism by stopping black kids being afraid of him? Or does it make more sense to stop white cops shooting innocent black kids?

So it is with Schrödinger's Rapist. If women are sexist against men, it's because men are sexist against women and will act on that sexism to commit acts of violence against them. The only way to tackle women's mistrust of men is to make men more trustworthy. Men telling women they have no right to be afraid of them because it's sexist makes the problem worse because it reinforces the male-biased power balance.

There, Mansplained it for you. :D

You don't know that. You don't know her. What if my wife is a teacher? What if she abuses children in her care? What if she abuses our children? What if she is a carer who mistreats elderly and vulnerable people in her care? You don't know her.

What if my daughter takes part in on-line bullying? What if she encourages other girls to pick on vulnerable girls in her peer group? What if her cruelty drives vulnerable girls to self-harm, bulimia, anorexia, suicide? You don't know her.

Male violence and abuse is much more prevalent than female, but it is not unique. That is nonsense.

"The fact that men's predatory disposition is unknowable should never have been raised, because you cannot use the same analogy for any characteristic other than gender."

The extremely unique violence perpetrated by human being males is not an argument against fear, it is an argument for fear.

Males and females share humor, love, fear, outrage, rejection, joy, and the entire panoply of human emotions, but men encourage, participate in, and excuse each others violence to a widespread degree that makes male violence unique.

www.amazon.com/Demonic-Males-Origins-Human-Violence/dp/0395877431

Would you revise your hypothetical to take this tragically universal fact into consideration, or would that wreck the pity party you're trying to throw for yourself via your wife and daughter?

"Similarly, men with dark skin are Schroedinger's terrorists and Schroedinger's suicide bombers"

People are not afraid of your wife and daughter. PEOPLE ARE NOT AFRAID OF YOUR WIFE AND DAUGHTER.

Oh, and in the USA, 78 separate plots uncovered by the FBI since 9/11;

www.fbi.gov/about-us/ten-years-after-the-fbi-since-9-11/investigative-accomplishments/terrorism-investigations

And none of this is being quoted to belittle or minimise both the perceived and actual threat to women in their daily lives. But I think you are underplaying this, and I don't know if it is deliberate or just a lack of awareness.

Right. So it is stats. Schroedinger is dead then (not dead and alive). The fact that men's predatory disposition is unknowable should never have been raised, because you cannot use the same analogy for any characteristic other than gender.

Oh, and 56 died and over 700 were seriously injured during 7/7. And at least fifty similar (or larger) plots have been foiled since then;

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-33417300

And then there are the plots that maybe the authorities never knew about - failed, postponed, chickened out. So five is a bit misleading when we are talking about threat.

5 people have been killed by terrorists in the UK in the last ten years.
That's about the same as the number of women killed per month by a man.

Also, Sometimes he seems like a decent person....Sometimes he seems like a goady MRA fucker. This is really interesting. In your view, is there no middle ground - someone who agrees with some of your views and not others? It reminds me a bit of George Bush - 'either you are with us, or you are against us.' Is there no room for discussion in your politics?

I was responding to the polarity in POVs put forward by you on various threads on FWR. Sometimes you are very sympathetic to women. Sometimes I find you sexist and goady. Tonight its the latter.

I'm not dismissing anyone's fears.
The fact remains though that women are hugely at risk of sexual violence from men but no one in the UK is hugely at risk of terrorism.
Fear of Muslim terrorists is like fear of flying. Understandable, but disproportionate to the actual risk. Whereas fear of men isn't disproportionate to the risks given how many women are assaulted by men.
The conflation of fear of being assaulted by a man with other things that are accepted as bigotry (such as fear of Muslims, fear of gay people) is an MRA style derailment tactic.

Also, Sometimes he seems like a decent person....Sometimes he seems like a goady MRA fucker. This is really interesting. In your view, is there no middle ground - someone who agrees with some of your views and not others? It reminds me a bit of George Bush - 'either you are with us, or you are against us.' Is there no room for discussion in your politics?

Not an MRA. I assume an MRA would say that Schroedinger's Rapist is wrong because blah blah blah. I am not - I get it. Like I get about women-only spaces, if people want them. I might not like being lumped in with the assaulters and rapists, but I understand why some women think that way and me feeling a bit miffed is really no big deal.

I have a wife and daughter. They are mixed race, and these issues affect us as a family - public perception, attitudes, other people's reactions and fears. The attitude here seems to be that this is a matter of statistics. There are enough predatory men to put every single woman in potential danger. Whereas, there just aren't enough terrorists to go round to make it worth worrying about - which is bollocks. How many terrorist attempts have their been recently, in the UK, Europe and further afield? You are discussing your own fears - which is reasonable - and dismissing those held by other people. And you dismiss them because they make you uncomfortable.

Yeah I can't decide about grim. Sometimes he seems like a decent person, so I assume his wife/sisters/friends might tell him. Sometimes he seems like a goady MRA fucker so I assume doesn't speak to any females irl

Maybe ask them. I'm willing to bet most of them.

Yeah, but do you really think they'll want to talk to him about this?
If a man proudly tells me that no woman he knows was ever sexually assaulted, I can only assume that they know his attitude and are therefore less inclined to tell him than tell anyone at all.

No you can't force people together but they should stay in their own communities/at home and not bring their separatism and hate to a music festival.

Fair enough - don't think religious extremists would want to go to a heathen music festival, anyway.

Also, if you are hurt by a terrorist, no one will blame you for being hurt. They will blame the terrorist for your injuries. As all too many women know, this is not always the case with rape.

The laziest anaology of all time- using race as a comparison to gender/sex.
Guess what!? Some women are also white mixed with asian and some men are also black and arab.
Enough with the derailment using brown terroists. It doesnt work.

grim seriously, the figures are irrelevant?
Most women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. For the majority that will be "just" a grope but for a significant minority it will involve rape.
How many people do you know who have been killed by terrorists? Probably none, maybe 1, if you are unlucky.
How many women do you know who have been sexually assaulted or raped? Maybe ask them. I'm willing to bet most of them.
Us women are just paranoid though

"Like the M&M's, the figures are irrelevant.:

The hell they're irrelevant. They're everything.

This is what your theorizing sounds like to me:

Men hurt women. Snakes hurt women. Therefore, is it not logically rational for women to be more afraid of men than they are of snakes.

It's dumb.

I can't believe what I've read... If all men are schroedingers rapist that can be applied to women as ive seen reports across all types of relationships women are more domestically violent. And I would argue being a woman is not like being black. Black people are a minority men and women are split pretty evenly.

Women are not equally represented in music and most other public arenas, despite being 50% of the population. That's exactly why glasto proposed the women's space.

And women are not more domestically violent. That's utter bollocks. Show me a source that says that.

Just to reiterate, I see no problem with this proposal at Glastonbury. If it is what attendees want, more power to them.

But this Schroedinger's principal (which is fine by me, I understand the concern) - it seems to make some people uncomfortable when it is applied to race and religion, and yet it's fine to apply it to gender. Am I unreasonable to be nervous if I see a brown-skinned person on a plane or a tube train? I don't know them. Like the M&M's, the figures are irrelevant. These events happen, and I don't know if that man or woman sat next to me will be the next martyr. If it's one in a thousand Muslims who think this way, or one in ten thousand, or one in ten - frankly, I don't care because I cannot see their intention.

vestle i was responding to the post above mine that said any group should be able to
separate inc straight men. The post has dissapeared.
No you can't force people together but they should stay in their own communities/at home and not bring their separatism and hate to a music festival.
Whereas I see women wanting sanctuary from being touched up as they walk through a crowd at Glasto as something totally understandable, although regretable.

sillage BOOM

I could keep going, but your hollow theorization that the rapes that happen to about 1/3 of all women is just like the political violence that terrorists groups commit has no legs. It is a think hypothesis that has to ignore a planet-sized mountain of evidence to be made.

Exactly. I was ignoring Grimarse because I'm 99% sure he's intentionally wasting our time by asking ignorant questions. (Is there a word for this? It's like the other side of the mansplaining coin.)

Do we really want "muslim only tents", "no gingers tents" etc etc surely the beauty of music is that it is inclusive and brings people together? Or am I an old hippy?

Well, let's phrase it like this: Do you really want to share a space with people who hate gingers? Do you really want to share a space with Muslims who don't want to talk to anyone of a different religion?
If people don't want to come together, forcing them to won't improve anything.

And as for a straight men only tent...what are they hiding from? Being groped and raped by women? It would be empty.

And therefore, why should there be one?
(I don't think the "no gingers" tent would be so popular, either.)

The stats are very clear that the vast majority of domestic and sexual violence and abuse is committed by men against female partners. Men are far more likely to engage in coercive control, perpetrate multiple incidents of assault against a current or former partner and are the vast majority of perpetrators of fatal violence in a relationship.

Male victims of DSVA are more likely to be victims of a male perpetrator. Incidents of sexual violence perpetrated by a woman without a dominant male partner is minuscule.

The fact of the matter is that we have a culture of male violence committed by a not insignificant cohort of men. We also have a culture of men being excused for their violence and women being blamed for being victims. Amber Heard being a case in point.

If men don't want to be considered Schrodinger's rapist, they have the tools to challenge and dismantle the culture of male violence. Only a not very significant number of men are actually doing this. I have zero tolerance for men who whinge about hurt feelings when women making it clear they want a safe space whilst simultaneously laughing at rape jokes and dumping all the unpaid caring work on their partners. Either step up or shut up.