Can someone explain the feminism - transgender clash...

You're not derailing at all. Your experience is very relevant to the OP's original question.

Oh it did! BIG press. The whole thing was terrifying for me because i was worried that my position could be interpreted at anti trans or homophobic even, and that would be my career over.

Everything you said almond , came to pass. Even makes me wonder whether you were in our group ;) Male journos joined in, saying how unfair it was that us females had a secret group (!)

Anyway, im thread derailing i'm sure, so i'll shut up about it now

That's a good way to put it venus. I am pretty much on board with opposing it, I guess I've just had a strong does of female conditioning that makes me want to find some sort of common ground where it can be found. But as I said here or on the ladyfest thread it does seem that giving common ground is just a give an inch type of move.

Thanks Betty - that's interesting about the American aspect. I think Americans are often more vocal about everything, which can be bad and good but is obviously bad here. I can't believe it could have got into the press!? Madness!

If trans people can have their own groups then surely cis people can argue that they can too?

No "cis people" (women, you don't think they'd actually try to do this to men?) won't be able to argue this. By pandering and using the word "cis" they are accepting the role that transactivists have made for them, that of a terrible oppressor group who should be grateful for their lives and STFU. And they can use all the social justice rhetoric that you would normally find applied to white people or straight men to get that message across.

I struggle with the growing "normalisation" of transsexuality.
In society we are experiencing a narrowing of gender norms. From my childhood (70s) and young adulthood (90s) to now women are expected to be more sexualised particularly in dress and personal grooming.
As a feminist i feel that I am shouting as loud as I can that I can be "professional" at work without heels and makeup and that not shaving your pubes is not equal to being dirty and unwashed.
Then along comes this school of thought that says if a young person doesn't want to fit in this tiny box that is labelled "woman" then instead of fighting to expand the box, they just choose a different box. One called trans or non-binary or gender fluid or whatever.
That might be ok for them, but in return my box, the "woman" box gets smaller and smaller and the definition of a "proper woman" only covers women performing extremely conforming and increasingly onerous femininity.

Im in the uk *sixpence' but the group was international and included a lot of americans particularly from LA and NY.

They did go to the press almond and we disbanded pretty quickly because of it. Our real names etc were very visible on our FB page and nobody wants the hassle. It was a massive shame.

I am coming to believe the same thing Lurcio but am clinging on to hope that there might be some way to find middle ground on certain issues. What makes me so sad is that there are a core of trans people who genuinely have a distressing condition and attempts to recognise and facilitate this are being abused to such an extent.

If trans people can have their own groups then surely cis people can argue that they can too? I would be curious to see what reaction it got although I don't think the outcome you suggest is particularly unlikely.

Vestal - "no to pandering" - yes, yes, yes to this. I am increasingly coming to the conclusion (see thread on celebrating vulvas at Ladyfest) that this is a case of "give an inch and they'll take a mile." So the only response to this sort of thing ("wah, vulva cupcakes are so transexclusionary") has got to be either a straight "well, that's your problem, not mine, matey" or possibly (if one is feeling sufficiently PA) the classic "non apology apology" of "I'm sorry you feel that way, but we think it's a valuable exercise/activity/whatever, so we're going to carry right on with it."

They sound like they were only there to deliberately shit stir, Betty.

hermoine i told them respectfully to eff off (!) and got called all sorts by the few very vocal biological females that supported them. Personally, i felt torn between not wanting to seem like a bigot but also livid at the same time that our club had imploded because of people who shouldnt of even been in it.

Speechless BettyDraper1. So some people want the right into women's groups and spaces even when they acknowledge that they aren't women and don't even feel like they are?! Were there any trans people that took your side?

Do you actually think that if someone set up a group for "cis-women only" there wouldn't be any criticism of that? Women are not being allowed to have their own spaces. And pandering to this shit does not make the situation any better. We are not "cis women", we are women.

The latter vestal they were biologically male but identified as trans but not as women. It created a big divide (and a MAHOOSIVE argument that went on for weeks) between those of us, like me that felt that as our group name explicitly contained the words 'for women', that identifying as a woman should be essential for membership. And of course those who felt we were bigots for feeling that way. I'm not anti-trans but if a club is exclusively for women then it should be for people who identify as women, to my mind.

Oh god yes

I am NOT a cis

I am a woman

I agree that the word is unpopular for good reason venus. But here I thought it might be the lesser of two evils. Otherwise there is no group or no group that can actually function properly.

almond - I'm just wondering if BettyDraper lives in a very different country or culture or a part of the country where there might be more trans people than the rest of the UK (isn't Brighton supposed to have a really high gay population?). I've yet to come across many trans people in real life so when others have experiences like Betty's I wonder if their experiences are unusual or if mine are.

I didn't think I'd asked for any other personal information?! I stupidly gave out my name to someone who may not be a feminist or feminist ally but I haven't asked for anyone elses' details. Although I have expressed an interest in doing something to voice my concerns and am therefore interested if there are facebook groups.

No to pandering to twats by using the loaded word "cis".

Male bathroom, female bathroom, unisex bathroom.....problem solved

Presumably they were non binary trans.

Why is where posters live relevant Sixpence?

You ask for personal info and contacts on these threads a few times.

Our trans members starting objecting to this sort of language saying they didnt identify as women so it offended them

This is confusing. Were your trans members biologically female? (transmen)? Or were they just men, who joined a group supposed to be for women, under the guise of being trans, while not even identifying as female?

While I would grant transmen access to some women's groups, I would expect them to acknowledge that they are only in this group because they ARE women.
If they can't cope with being treated as women even in the context of affirmative action, then they should try to get into the boys' clubs.

Can I ask where you live BettyDraper? Roughly obviously, not looking for your house number! And how many trans people joined? I'm guessing they were contacted by group members directly and invited?

Could you try to set up another group for "cis-women"? I know many people don't like the term but at least it means you're not facing language policing by people who believe they are women enough to join the group but then don't identify with the word "ladies". I presume it was transmen who objected?

Made a massive fuss outside of the group about the existence of the group. This would have been backed up by various men who would be annoyed that the group existed at all. Various women in the group would be singled out and have their career prospects undermined, or possibly lose their jobs.

That's probably what would have happened.

betty if women told TW behaving like that to fuck off, the whole thing woukdnt have snowballed as it has.

If you'd said, sorry this group is for women and not included them. Or if you'd told them you don't care if they're offended by "hey ladies" what could they have done?