This is getting out of control - Ladyfest

Petal I read about this on Mumsnet. You're asking all the right questions

To be fair, no ones genitals are exactly pretty

The article about the vulva cupcakes is shocking. In particular, the expectation of one of the opponents to the event that simply because a transwoman had expressed her discomfort, the organisers should reevaluate their stance. Just this mind blowing sense of entitlement that if one transwoman doesn't like it, it shouldn't happen. The laughable assertion that the making of vulva cupcakes as 'incredibly violent to transwomen' - how? And the rather telling remark that the vulva cupcakes would be 'ugly', revealing how this person regards female anatomy - as something disgusting. It's blatant misogyny, bizarrely defended through some incomprehensible twists of logic as being victims of 'transmisogyny'. And throwing in completely unfounded accusations of racism as well - anything to depict themselves as victims in order to get their own way on everything.

The thing that baffles me most is how a handful (in population terms) of special snowflakes try to dictate to half the world's population - and get taken seriously by people who should know better.

“Society is not comfortable with the image of a penis on a woman

That is because a woman does NOT have a fucking penis. A man does

Here's one example of how discussing vulvas is transphobic
claremontindependent.com/students-condemn-project-vulva-for-transmisogyny/

Just for you dione

www.sheknows.com/health-and-wellness/articles/1122689/menstruation-matters-transgender

www.theestablishment.co/2016/05/31/yes-trans-women-can-get-period-symptoms/

Petal, I mainly learned about this from Mumsnet. There are a lot of informative threads on the feminism boards.

You might find these helpful too:

An introduction to the difference between biological sex and gender identity, by feminist philosopher Rebecca Reilly-Cooper.

Stephanie Davies-Arai explains the implications of the Women & Equalities Committee's recent transgender equality report.

Gosh,hello there,that is so bizarre,it's the whole PC thing,it's gone to far the other way,one poster on this thread ,or another I was reading,said she thinks it's a mental illness,and it shouldn't be treated with surgery but with medication,,now that made me think of all the pro Anna sites ,where they say it is a life style choice to be anorexic ,but we all know they are mentally ill....I wonder if in years to come,we will be treating trans people in in patients in hospitals for mental illness

Petal you sound like me 8 weeks ago. Since reading this stuff on here I have suddenly become very aware of how women's rights and spaces etc are changing.

A couple of years ago we had a man dressed as a women join my work. He was not having any treatment but wore a skirt. He was allowed to use the ladies toilets. I was horrified. I had to attend meetings and found it very hard to see him as a woman when he wasn't. HR were no use and told me hard luck. Thankfully he had to leave the job for something completely unrelated and life has gone back to normal. However I do know that if it happens again I will raise the issue of my right to have a safe space.

I don't even know where to start with all this. I have been thinking about it all a lot since the no-platforming of Germaine Green and I'm finding it all utterly boggling.

One thing I'm sure of though, no-one should be able to tell us what terminology we use to talk about our own bodies.

Sorry, for one of my first posts here, I am not appearing very articulate but I look forward to discussing this more with you all!

BUT, I will be using the word clitoris in my conversations with my friends...because I'm going to tell them everything I have learned in this thread....

This is my problem,I can't remember what all the terms mean ,so lady balls you've lost me....I feel like I'd need a degree in this subject to be able to follow it.....why are there so many confusing names....

Petal I don't think you're stupid. I think there are people with genuine dysphoria who genuinely feel they're the opposite sex. But there are definitely a lot of misogynists who are using trans issues as yet another way to shit all over women.

petal I generally avoid any threads on these topics as I am totally bewildered by the terminology and then I get really pissed off with some of the comments. Have loved your comments on this one, you could be me, and I think you sum it all up neatly in your penultimate post.

How do some of you know so much....but also,in my very sheltered (boring?) life,I've never come across any of this,but then I'm not on face book.but I do read the daily mail...are there really that many men wanting to become female???are they all really unhappy being male??? OR....is this a way of getting power over women,a way of making us feel bad ,and taking away our sense of woman ness....sorry if that sounds stupid...this thread is my first ..err like time I'm thinking about this.

The Period/Sanpro aisle?

None of the supermarkets here have a whole aisle though. Sanpro is found with the nappies and babyfood.

Hmm, what new euphamism will be chosen for the "feminine hygiene" aisle?

From what I can gather, many/most/all(?) trans and non binary people would prefer sanpro to be marketed as: "Have periods? Here's our sanpro product." No gender identity, just biology.

I think how it works is that most trans people who do not undergo reassignment surgery are now so used to hearing "men can have vaginas" that they no longer consider their actual anatomy to be male. But they don't believe a man can be a woman (as they define both terms) so hearing terms like "woman" are triggering. I don't get the breast feeding thing though because surely if you're male and you have breasts they are just male breasts? Like your male vagina? It's maybe very individual to each person?

Again - a trans man requesting sanpro etc discussions to be changed to accommodate them means we still prioritize the feelings of gender identity and self definition above accuracy and biology and thus privilege the self definition of a few above the reality of the many. I would love to know if the same trans men are complaining about men using language that excludes them and references male biology - perhaps we should no longer testify in court or be able to use words like Bollocks as these are triggering. We might get rid of some long held phalluses that way (Bad joke, I know!)

How a trans man deals with their body and periods etc must be a difficult choice and its pretty understandable that female body changes can be associated with dysphoria; but should acceptance and sympathy for this it be used to change the language for every other woman so we can centre those who identify as male?

Its also interesting that some trans men choose while their identity is male to carry children and breastfeed e.g. use their female anatomy in a way only females can: but apparently their dysphoric feelings are more triggered when people use language to describe this? eg calling them a pregnant woman, discussing breastfeeding. I would love to understand but I cant work out how to square that circle!

All of the articles I have read about the feminisation of periods and sanpro or periods being triggering for trans people have been from a born female now non binary or trans man perspective. Even the thread in AIBU last week regarding periods being a woman's issue, the link was an article that was predominantly born women who no longer identify as women commenting.

I also apparently need a spellchecker

I really have a problem with this

I have female anatomy. I have a vagina, vulva, clitoris, labia majora and minora, cervix, cervical os and fornices, uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries. Its not a front hole or any euphemism for a neovagina, its a functional organ with its own autoregulation, cyclical hormonal influences, blood supply, microbiological flora, cervical and bartholins glands, rugae and musculature. Its a part of my anatomy and reality just as my heart, lungs and spleen are.

I am pretty lucky in some ways compared to other women in the world who are denied this knowledge, this ability to speak of their sexual organs, understand how they work and have control over when and how I use them. I am incredibly lucky to have never been subjected to infibulation or surgical changes, or any of the myriad vile acts that can beand are carried out on women and girls because of their anatomy (not their internal indentity, sense of gender, but their anatomy.)

I have an education denied to many women because they were born with these organs, I can speak of them calmly, with no sense of disgust or shame, like one would use the terms penis, testes or scrotum. 100 years ago textbooks were censored, even the first female medical students had to fight for the right to learn and dissect both male and female anatomy: knowledge is dangerous! Generations of women lived, had sex, gave birth and died without being able to discuss or define or understand aspects of their anatomy, and shame and embarrassment meant that they did not seek assistance for medical problems. Its one of the things that has led me into the field I work in and in charity work involving education, health and obstetric care in developing nations.

These things matter - we are supposed to avoid discussion of our genitalia with a huge subtext of 'nasty smelly things anyway' heaped in so we do not trigger dysphoric feelings in those unhappy at not being born with our anatomy? We are supposed to use euphymisms to pretend that the phenotypes we are born with in all their complexity are somehow identically equivalent to a surgically created neovagina that requires mechanical dilation and fulfils only one function of the vagina eg allows penetration.

I have always been sympathetic to those who feel trapped by gendered norms in our society, wish they could be different, be socially accepted in not conforming to dress and behavioural expectations, love who they want and live how they want as long as its legal, consensual and non exploitative. I cant however get behind any movement that in the interests of some sense of equality creates an Orwellian double speak where we have to obfuscate and deny any difference: it prevents real issues and problems being described and oddly enough, plu ca change, its women who are being denied the ability to speak of and define their reality.