Transgender Toilets

I agree Empress - I'm fully informed about the trans/rad fem debate and am mostly on the feminist side. I just remember watching a documentary about a little boy/girl (a boy but identified as a girl) who passed completely being only 5 or 6 I think. If I was his /her teacher I'd struggle to explain to her why she couldn't use the girls toilets. Especially when at that age little boys aren't a threat to little girls and children don't really care much about privacy. But then as you grow up, if you haven't made that separation it becomes difficult to suddenly justify saying "you are now 12 and are no longer permitted in these toilets" or some such. And if the child did have genuine dysphoria it might be genuinely harmful to tell her that she is the sex she is. I don't think they recommend you do that where there's that specific condition.

sashh - disabled people aren't not allowed to use non-disabled loos though. If you're female you are perfectly entitled to use the female loos and I imagine most disabled people do if the loos in question are actually usable depending on the person's specific disability. Society doesn't want to make disabled people feel different either but due to confines of space all loos can't usually be made big enough for a wheelchair and because there are relatively few that are big enough it makes sense to reserve them only for those who can't use other ones.

And I can also see the argument that an able bodied person doesn't want an aspect of their personality labelled a disability if it doesn't actually hinder them in any way. Someone saying as such isn't trying to claim that they're superior to a disabled person. If as a disabled person you feel differently though I'll take that on board obviously. I don't mean to cause offense.

In the US, the Government are trying to force schools to let everyone use the toilets & changing rooms of their choice and the backlash is starting.

www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/public-bathroom-regulations-could-create-a-title-ix-crisis

Sixpence, yes I do see people who actually have the surgery differently, but the problem is that nowadays, being trans often seems to have nothing to do with body dysphoria. The term's been diluted to meaninglessness, and when the media cover this they only speak to the pretty, passing transwomen - I bet the "won't pee next to a bigot" brigade would react very differently if faced with Danielle Muscato, for instance.

Maria munir, the person who had the opportunity to speak to president Obama on television and decided to use it to tell the president they were 'non binary' believes that people who are neither men nor women have zero rights in the uk and need special accommodations for their non binary status.
So actually what we need it
Male toilets
Female toilets
'Women' toilets (to include TW and all the women who'd rather pee next to a TW than a bigot)
'Men' toilets for men and trans men (but only the ones who pass, non passing TM will probably use the women or female toilets)
Non binary toilets for people who consider themselves both or neither
And disabled toilets

EnthusiasmDisturbed

There are a few that I have seen, plus our Puddles (I wonder where they got to?). They get attacked viciously by their own 'community' which makes me wonder how many more there are that are scared to speak out.

Well said Sashh.

There's something that feels very cruel about making them use their own special toilets, making them not man, not woman, not anything

But that's fine for those of us with disabilities

"There's something that feels very cruel about making them use their own special toilets, making them not man, not woman"

Then what to do with the growing number of "trans people" who identify themselves as exactly that, i.e. 'non-male/non-female???

Also ignores the fact that in older STEM subjects buildings, there weren't even equal numbers of womens loos to begin with, and given that they never seem to convert a gents loo into anything else........

Ahh yes, I remember actually going out of my way to use the loos in Physics or Electronics at Uni - it was like having your own personal loo.

Of course, in Electronics, there was the day when a male cyclist walked in undressing himself as I was washing my hands - he'd also noticed that they were barely used and started availing himself of the nice, clean facilities. He at least started checking before entering the room and disrobing from then on (and was most apologetic)

Isn't it then about society accepting trans people and trans men/women accepting that is what they are as they can never become the other

I have a lot of sympathy for sections of the trans community in this situation. I think trans people who genuinely have gender dysphoria have really difficult lives and are probably "othered" and made to feel inferior in many ways in their day to day lives. There's something that feels very cruel about making them use their own special toilets, making them not man, not woman, not anything. And when it comes to trans children with genuine dysphoria it feels unbelievably heartless to insist on it. Does anyone else feel differently about those who have actually had reassignment surgery or who have the medical condition?

At my uni, they have dealt with the trans loo issue, by installing gender-neutral (single-seater?) loos in the newer buildings (I don't know if they are also accessible/disabled, but in terms of symbols, it just has trousers and skirt, not wheelchair as well, so I presume not!).

In some older buildings, they have taken the old-fashioned wheelchair accessible loos and turned them into trousers or skirts loos, whilst installing newer, shinier wheelchair accessible loos.

Which isn't too bad a reaction, frankly, and avoids the 'all loos should be gender neutral, we should all go together when we go' loonies. (got all Tom Lehrer there for a moment!).

Also ignores the fact that in older STEM subjects buildings, there weren't even equal numbers of womens loos to begin with, and given that they never seem to convert a gents loo into anything else........

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jess-phillips/online-abuse-women_b_10133700.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Fear no doubt, like many women have of speaking out. A joint class action where names are kept confidential seems the answer here. Turn their game around on them and do the same instead of getting upset. I don't know anyone who would take on such a pro bono case. Women and women living with disabilities are protected characteristics too.

I did point that out on previous post

But they keeping very quiet only one trans activist I have seen that has spoken publicly against the activists that are ignoring women rights

Actually it may do good, to work with the trans community who simply want somewhere safe to use the loo, rather than erode safe spaces and the dignity of others.

That's not always true, as with any group of people it's the extreme end behaving with a lack of empathy towards others. I am sure some in the trans community are not impressed.

Yes they do

Shame they don't take on what often is seen as a more of a female trait and that is to be more understanding to how others feel but then they haven't been conditioned to be that way have they

Not a solution, Hermione, because as Hama and others have said, they want to access the single sex toilets.

Solution

What I don't get is how supposedly superior, critical thinkers (like, judges) can make these stupid decisions.

The answer is for a pro bono test case by women who don't want to share.

I though providing a unisex toilet along with male and female would be the answer

But it's not is it because trans women want to be accepted as women while far too many are trampling over women's feelings and ignoring our fears and what we feel is right for us

I don't want to share toilets with trans women I do not need to explain why (list is too long and it's been said so many times before) I just don't but my voice is not as powerful as a mans and I know that from experience one they will never ever share

Don't get me started on how most people don't know their chromosomes. Actually, for the vast majority of people it's very clear.

Yes, abnormalities in this, like XXY or XXX or just X are usually obvious pretty early on.
And when menstruation starts or doesn't start, you'd find out anyway.

If you have a dick, you have an Y - walking around claiming that you don't know your chromosomes is pretty stupid.

Perhaps just X and Y would be more clear. Whether a woman has one X more or less isn't really such a big deal.

Don't get me started on how most people don't know their chromosomes. Actually, for the vast majority of people it's very clear.

And for any woman who's had children, it's completely clear.

I saw on some infographic or other what I thought was a cool, succinct logo - it was a normal 'bod' (you know the blobby 'person' logo - sans skirt) with either two circles next to each other in the lower body, or two separated circles - ie. Testes or Ovaries.

I thought that was a neat way of having a symbol based on sex rather than gender stereotypes.