Transgender Toilets

And if that post op person with a penis is attracted to women, you would still insist they use the women's toilets?

Yes.

So the general argument on here seems to be that people should use toilets based on the genitalia they had at birth.

So this would mean that post op trans people who now have a vagina should be made to use the men's toilet, and post op people who now have a penis should be made to use the women's toilet, yes?

It's nonsense to compare racial segregation to sex segregation.

No black people were ever demanding to be called white.

I am conflicted here because I don't personally care very much who I share a bathroom with but I agree that if you allow people to self identify as women when it comes to toilets you allow them to do so in other situations, some of which are hugely problematic from a feminist point of view. I also think other women and girls have every right to care about who they share a bathroom with.

I am mindful of the report by the British Association of Transgender Health Specialists (or they're called something like that any way) that warns of an ever increasing tide of "pretend transexuals" - predators who assume a female identity for predatory reasons and I always try and bring that up when people try to make out that there are not only no concerns but that there aren't even any grounds for concern.

That said, I have just come across this article which is by a bug bunch of American experts, many who are organisations dealing with sexual abuse and violence. It says there are no safety concerns:

abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assault-domestic-violence-organizations-debunk-bathroom-predator/story?id=38604019

I would tend to agree that if someone is going to assault someone they will do so under any circumstances but what worries me more are the men whose presence itself is an act of aggression. The men who don't present as female but who turn up in women's changing rooms and feel they have a right to be there, and may do so for the purpose of causing discomfort.

Fair enough but this just doesn't sit well with me. Wasn't it not too long ago people of colour weren't allowed to use the same bathrooms? Discrimination is discrimination

Have you been of this opinion back when women and men used separate toilets? Because I never heard of anyone opposing this separation.

I am a feminist, and if I had felt that the separate bathrooms for women and men were discriminatory, rest assured, I would have said something against it.
As stated initially, I have zero desire to see men with their penises in hand. I also have forgotten to lock the cubicle door, and you bet I was glad it was a woman who accidentally opened the door while I was peeing!

Black people were kept out of white people toilets because it was believed they had specific diseases and would pass them on to clean white people. It was disgusting racism based on erroneous beliefs about the superiority of white people.

Males and females have always had separate public toilets and washing facilities, ever since Female toilets were introduced (before that women wouldn't use toilets when out). Excluding males from female toilets is not because we believe males are worse or more diseased than females, but because intimate, personal acts like toileting and washing have always been sex segregated. Unless you wish to argue for unisex facilities everywhere, including swimming pools and hospital wings then there is no logic to the argument that males should be allowed to use female only facilities because of a subjective, untestable and entirely specious sense of gender identity that makes a male feel like they are actually a female.

Okay, I'm confused. I thought we were talking about Jersey not New Jersey in the U.S.

Racism? I've heard arguments about trans women being "just another group like black women or disabled women".

That appears to imply that only white, able-bodied women are bothered about the idea of free access to women's toilets. Somehow that's hard to believe.

I predict generations into the future will look back on us now and our enabling of people with psychological/psychiatric issues and view it with horror.

The science is not in on the subject, yet public opinion is yet again sallying forth blindly. Which of course political policy will follow.

Yes I get the arguments, no I do not agree with everything the trans community comes out with, and no that doesn't make me transphobic.

Fair enough but this just doesn't sit well with me. Wasn't it not too long ago people of colour weren't allowed to use the same bathrooms? Discrimination is discrimination

GipsyDanger - the people posting here are not gut reaction transphobics, they are people who have thought about and discussed this at length.

When you let in transwomen and you allow people to self identify then you are legally allowing entry to the people who self select to enter the women's toilets.

Many of those people will be doing so to validate their own self gender identity and while some would question the doing so and their presence may make women feel uncomfortable they are mostly harmless. The other group of people who would self select to enter are those who are predatory - there have been countless cases of these people behaving in harmful ways towards women.

Men may currently enter the women's toilet for reasons of harm without claiming any female identity but at least legal protections allow for them to be questioned and removed but if the ability to question and remove is withdrawn then two separate toilets sets becomes pointless.

Gipsy, I've just posted this list somewhere else so have it conveniently ready...

These men may or may not be transgender. I don't know. What I do know is at the moment if a woman walks into the toilet & sees someone like this they know to get out sharp.

www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Cross-dresser-branded-high-risk-women/story-16994889-detail/story.html

www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/bullring-toilet-pervert-who-wore-154191

www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/local-news/97436/69-year-old-exposed-himself-to.html

www.oregonlive.com/oregon-city/index.ssf/2011/10/cross-dressing_sex_predator_se.html

www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2003/11/27/national/man-caves-in-to-voyeuristic-needs/

www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Man-Dressed-as-Woman-Spies-Into-Mall-Bathroom-Stall-in-Virginia-Police-Say-332934761.html

www.sptimes.com/News/92599/Pasco/Cross_dressing_man_se.shtml

fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/02/man-in-barbie-costume-attacks-woman-in-bathroom/

ktla.com/2013/05/14/da-cross-dressing-man-secretly-videotaped-women-in-macys-bathroom/

www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Secret-Recording-Store-Mall-Antelope-Valley-Palmdale-Restroom-207541101.html

www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Police-Man-in-bra-and-wig-found-in-women-s-3414089.php

How come it's great that surgery is an option for people with gender dysphoria but people with body dysmorphia who get surgery are generally talked about in a "surgery isn't the answer, they are ill, they need counselling" etc?
Fucking no.

i don't see what the problem. If a trans women wants to use the ladies bathroom why shouldn't she. When in the history of ever has a trans women attacked another women in the toilets. Surely if someone was so inclined it wouldn't matter what sex or bathroom they identified very transphobic this thread

The condition of gender dysphoria would exist less frequently if the rigid and artificial constraints of gender performance were to be challenged more frequently.

It's impossible to diagnose sex disphoria in pre pubescent children. For whatever reason they have absorbed the notion that only girls can do XYZ and only boys can do ABC which is bullshit.

Boys and girls need to be free of the dogmatic opression of gender roles (which the trans-lobby deeply uphold) then sex dysphoria can be treated in the best way, psychologically, without mutilating healthy bodies.

Ophelia I am also pretty concerned about the "trans trend" and the way that children are being encouraged to even think about whether their personality "matches" their genitals and in most cases I would agree with you that telling a child that it is what it is not is morally dubious at the very least and potentially incredibly damaging.

However, I do think that some trans people do genuinely have gender dysphoria and find the sex characteristics of their own bodies deeply distressing through no fault of their own, it's just a psychiatric condition they're born with. Something that they can't necessarily get away from irrespective of however much counselling they have. I also believe that many of these people do manage to end this suffering by undergoing reassignment surgery and by presenting as the opposite sex and for that reason I think it's a good thing that such an option exists. No surgery should be performed on children unless a medical consensus deems it appropriate in extreme circumstances (repeated suicide attempts by a child due to extreme distress in their physical body and resistance of distress to all forms of treatment etc) but in such cases it might genuinely be damaging to the child to be repeatedly told by everyone that they are a boy when their brain is telling them all day every day that they are a girl. Do you believe the condition exists in some trans people?

What a twat, or maybe not
I don't want little girls to have to see a man with cock in hand because somebody objects to a bloody picture or term ladies and gents.
What are owners of buildings supposed to do start building separate bloody toilets now.
We all ready have men, women, and disabled.
We'll end up adding pre op, post op, childrens because we can't have them seeing men weeing. Maybe we should have grans, too.

Men pee standing up. You can't trust them to aim properly, lift up the loo seat, put the loo seat back down, not pee on the seat whatever, hence urinals.

At home obviously my fella keeps the seat unsplashed, but I do not trust Mr public bloke to keep the loo seat sanitary.

An alternative is male option, female option or unisex option.

Really though, these debates fixating on toilets are often about what does the toilet represent.

What next? Physically male people with a female identity to then join a female swimming race? Physically male people with a female name to join a female only rowing club?

Really it's where do you draw the line.

I saw some unisex toilets in a small Norfolk market town. Behind each single lockable door was a cross between a urinal and regular toilet. It had a super-sized sloping bowl and the seat stays up as default. The seat has a handle on for women to pull it down and like an old fashioned theatre seat, your weight us the only thing that can keep the seat down.

They're rather daunting for children to use. I'm not sure if there were also separate cubicles for children, as you could lose a small child down the bowl if the ones I saw.

There would be no need for a urinal if there were toilets. Extra sanitary bins wouldn't cost much more. Some women make as much mess as men and the presence of a sink in the room with you brings lots of benefits too, especially if you want to use a mooncup.

I'd rather toilets be sex segregated and as they re now but if we are going to lose that then I'd rather have the single toilets than to have to share enclosed spaces with males.

singingsixpence
You really can't fathom telling a 5-6 year old boy that they use the male loos because they have male anatomy? I strongly believe allowing a 6 year old boy to believe in a delusion that they are a girl is akin to child abuse.

All children are genderless. They're children!
More adults are moving towards a gender fluid / genderless state too. But one thing will never change and that's sex based biological reality.

So what if he likes pink and fairy dolls. He is a boy who likes dresses. So what. He is absolutely not a girl though! This transkid "trend" is horrendous and damaging.

Would there have to be a stinkin urinal in all of these lockable booths? Sanitary bins in all booths?

I can't see many establishments taking on a doubling of cleaning and sanitary bin costs, not to mention huge refurbishment, just a small minority can't agree which loos are for whom.

I really don't want to have to sit next to a fermenting urinal everytime I need to change a tampon. And men pee on the seat if there isn't a urinal there. Sod that.

Penis = male loo.
Labia = female loo.

One day I hope we will have single person toilets for all - walls of lockable doors behind which there is a toilet and a sink with a shared queue but with priority access for the disabled. People with penises may have to queue up for longer than they are presently used to but at least it would be fair for all.