refusing to say 'Lady'

It's how language evolves. Since "woman" is seen as inferior, if you want to be polite, you intuitively use "lady".

We managed to put the actual word for woman out of use in Germany since a very long time - the normal term used for the female sex is now the one that was formerly exclusive to ladies. (Weib, for the common woman and Frau, for the noblewoman, respectively).

The polite term is "Dame", now.

Interestingly, we would never use the word "gentleman" in Germany to describe any random men, since the English term "gentleman" denotes a man with good manners. For many men, "bloke" is more accurate.

Agree with ArfArfArf, it is weird, and I don't know why woman and man sound wrong/rude, but they do. If talking to someone else about a person I didn't know in their hearing, I would always say "this lady was here first" or "there's a gentleman here who etc".

I hate love though. A man in Timpsons kept using it the other day and it made me want to rip his fucking head off.

Yup. I do a hard stare and say 'I don't think we're on those terms'. Or alternatively call him 'darling' or 'sweetie' and watch his bafflement.

Though in at least some parts of Cornwall, 'lover' seemed to be being applied cross-sexually and cross-generationally, which I kind of liked.

Pay the man seems rude too.

I certainly use 'woman' with women over 70 if I'm talking to my young child in a queue situation etc. I am aware that for some of them at least, that may sound 'rude', so I soften it slightly by making eye contact and smiling, or I sometimes might use 'person' instead - but honestly, I'm not responsible for someone else's internalised misogyny/snobbery. It's a sad day when we have to avoid using the word 'woman' because it's perceived as blunt or ungenteel.

Pay the man and pay the woman feels rude to me.
I don't see a problem with using lady. I wouldn't blink an eyelid if someone said it to me. I hate love though. A man in Timpsons kept using it the other day and it made me want to rip his fucking head off.

I say lady and gentleman

Ds17 has just said he would say pay the person...

If you struggle with 'woman' in a shop situation, try adding 'nice woman' to begin with?

yes, why is "woman" rude? I would definitely say "let the woman pass" if referring to an elderly woman.

Famous so you'd tell your toddler to 'let the woman pass' referring to an older 70+ female?

But in shops and social settings 'pay the woman/ let the woman pass' is rude.

Yes, it seems to be widely considered rude, but why? It's a purely neutral term, the same as 'man'. Why isn't 'woman' equivalently neutral to 'man' in terms of 'Let the man pass' interactions?

I think there's a certain amount of social history attached to why 'woman' is seen as less neutral than 'man'. Some of it's a lingering class and perceived respectability thing, where 'woman' was for a long time specifically used to refer to someone female who was lower on the social scale than you, eg a 'lady' might have a charwoman come in to clean her house.

In the 19thc the kind of impoverished middle-class woman who ended up becoming a governess because she had few other options as an unmarried and impoverished 'gentlewoman' would cling to the designation of 'lady'. And it's not accidental that a 'fallen woman' was not a 'fallen lady'. (Likewise 'Other Woman'.)

Possibly related, but some women who are well into adulthood seem to have difficulty in knowing what to call a bunch of female people collectively, and part of it must be some discomfort with 'woman'/'lady'. I personally cringe when friends who are my age and older (mid-40s) talking about 'a girl I work with' - I used to assume they meant a much younger school-leaver/intern or something, but when I actually met these people they were in their thirties and 40s. I would be referring to female colleagues as 'women I work with', but some people seem to not use this, oddly?

100% disagree with you I'm afraid.
•Lady is wrong at work and easily avoided Dear Team/ your client etc.
•in health care settings
But in shops and social settings 'pay the woman/ let the woman pass' is rude. And I would use gentleman when referring to an unknown man to someone else.

I agree with you MyPeriodFeatures and my DS aged nearly 4 will say "man" or "woman", (or sometimes "person"!) never lady or gentleman. I think FamousSeamus has summed up how I feel about it.

DS is 4 and he says lady and gentleman. I don't know if it is something I've encouraged, but I find the sound of woman and man quite abrupt in my broad accent, so maybe its subconsciously happened?

Lady and gentleman sound equally genteel to me.

DS does actual call DH a geezer though. As in "The geezer's home!"

I did the "lady" thing until recently and now use woman. Education is key! Keep going.

"Geezer" reminds me of Phil Mitchell.

I have a four year old and always say 'man' and 'woman' to him. 'Lady' is archaic, limiting and annoying, and it says a lot about our society than 'woman' seems to be seen as 'blunt' or 'rude', when 'man' is just what you call male people.

It must be.
I think as long as you're not addressing someone as "cunt" or "wanker" it doesn't really matter.

I hear it all the time. Must be where you live.