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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Man cleared of rape after having sex with a woman who thought he was someone else

515 replies

Felascloak · 14/05/2016 14:29

metro.co.uk/2016/05/12/woman-realised-she-was-having-sex-with-wrong-man-so-accused-him-of-rape-5876504/

I feel really bad for this woman (although I think if I was on the jury I probably would have thought there was a chance he believed he had consent). The headline implies she was unreasonably upset when she found the person having sex with her wasn't who she thought and so "falsely accused" him. Poor woman probably feels totally violated.
Also, what kind of man shags a woman who's gone home with a different guy, when that guy has just left the room for a minute. Ugh. He says he didn't even want to Confused

OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 20/05/2016 12:44

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Felascloak · 20/05/2016 12:39

2 seconds of googling found this page

journalistsresource.org/studies/society/public-health/sexual-assault-rape-us-college-campuses-research-roundup

Summary of recent research
"Rape is “not caused by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions of a small percentage of the community to commit a violent crime.” In fact, RAINN points out that research suggests 90% of rapes at colleges are perpetrated by 3% of college men — indicating a real issue of repeat offenders"
Women are more likely to be raped while drunk, but so are men. Drinking is a risk factor for most violent crime. It's only women who are ever pulled up on this risky behaviour.
One of the studies linked even says The high proportion of rapes found to occur when women were intoxicated indicates the need for alcohol prevention programs on campuses that address sexual assault, both to educate men about what constitutes rape and to advise women of risky situations". Note there is as much focus there on stopping men raping as women avoiding risk.

OP posts:
gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 20/05/2016 12:39

Buffy Did you see the names in brackets in my last post? Those refer to people who have carried out research that has indicated whatever statement is made in the preceding line.

VestalVirgin · 20/05/2016 12:35

All this advice to women on "how to prevent rape", is actually "make sure he rapes someone else" advice.

If you never get drunk, if you wear a burka, etc, he might - if you are lucky - rape someone else because he knows it is easier to get away with raping a drunk woman in a miniskirts than a sober woman in a burka.
But he will still rape.

Even applies to my suggestion to live in women-only houses and only go out in armed groups of five. The rapists would still be out there, and they would still rape.
And if all women went to one side of the country and built a wall to keep men out, then men would still rape other men, as observed in prisons.

The only thing that prevents rape is lowering the number of rapists. Or putting them in single cells in prison.

AHellOfABird · 20/05/2016 12:21

Given that marital rape was legal until 1991 in the UK ( no idea for other countries) I would assume that data collected since then has, over time, an increasing reflection of this change. And the current Rape and Sexual Offences Act has been in place since 2003; certainly, some of the prior Acts recorded oral penetration without consent as sexual assault, not rape, so again, older data may look different.

But looking forward to citations...

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 20/05/2016 10:18

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LassWiTheDelicateAir · 20/05/2016 08:44

Doesn't most research into crime the casuses of crime focus on analysing the causes from the point of view of the perpetrator not the victim?

Why does the perpetrator behave in that manner and what can we do to change the perpetrator's behaviour?

Felascloak · 20/05/2016 08:37

The research isn't as clear cut as you make out. Risk is increased when both men and women are drinking. In your post, you quote this man’s misperception of the woman’s degree of sexual interest is a significant predictor of sexual assault (Abbey et al. 1996a, 1998). The process just described can occur even in the absence of alcohol use. However, alcohol consumption can exacerbate the likelihood of misperception, thereby increasing the chances of sexual assault.'
That reads to me as if alcohol increases the chances of men incorrectly interpreting signals and raping. Yet you aren't advising men not to drink. Because as you've said up thread, you believe men can't be expected to control their behaviour.
Your point of view reflects misogynistic rape apologism, nothing less. It's a shame you can't reflect on your posts and see that.

OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 20/05/2016 08:31

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AHellOfABird · 20/05/2016 08:25

Interesting that you are not prepared to engage with dialogue around how the majority of rapes are carried out by men known to the victim and whether your recommendation is therefore that women don't enter into any personal relationships with men and remove themselves from any family relationships.

But then, your posts make you seem like a disingenuous wee besom, so it's no great surprise.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 20/05/2016 08:01

Interesting that not one of you is prepared to engage with dialogue that is being carried out by experts on this very important issue for the purposes of helping women.

To me, that says a great deal.

You would prefer that these predators strike according to a system known to no one but themselves, despite research showing that there are a host of factors leading up to rape and while it is never possible to dictate another person's behaviour or indeed to take responsibility for their choices, it is possible to understand how and where you may be at greater risk.

I'm disgusted to come across women who reject the benefits of research because they would rather that women were victims of rape than did what they could to avoid it.

EBearhug · 20/05/2016 02:46

I think anyone in a bikini at night in Britain is putting themselves at risk. They'll probably end up with hypothermia.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 20/05/2016 01:05

Kim my comments were directed to fella who had used the term. It most certainly wouldn't have been mine.

Kimononono · 20/05/2016 00:06

gone and what about women that We'r not drunk or seemed an easy target. If a rapist wants to rape he will. Your posts are utterly offensive

Kimononono · 20/05/2016 00:03

inviting rape Shock

gone your talking out your arsehol love. It's is one thing to be a rape apologist and another to say women ask to be raped.

venusinscorpio · 19/05/2016 21:25

Hey gone. Any rationale yet for why wearing a bikini in the street would be more likely to get you sexually assaulted? Any proof that rapists choose their victims by what they are wearing?

Felascloak · 19/05/2016 21:04

Interesting you don't suggest women need to cover up on the beach though, even though there is still a risk there. Is it only a woman's responsibility to minimise risk of being raped when she's doing something you feel isn't appropriate for a woman? Such as drinking or having casual sex?

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gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 20:47

How do men control themselves on the beach or at the pool I wonder?

Facetious. Obviously some don't and have no intention of doing so.

Yes it's unusual and interesting.

I used to sleep in my boyfriend's bedroom and also don't think that in any way invited rape. Having said that, looking back, I didn't have a great feeling about a couple of his house mates and there was probably a certain level of risk just by being there. Which would have gone up several notches if I'd been in those guys bedrooms for any reason at all I think. But there's a world of difference between being in a situation that is more open to exploitation by a predator and inviting rape.

Felascloak · 19/05/2016 20:41

How do men control themselves on the beach or at the pool I wonder?

Anyway in this case, she was raped ie had sex without her consent, but he is not a rapist because the court decided he could reasonably believe she consented (even though she didn't actually consent). It's unusual I think.

I really hate the insinuation she somehow put herself at risk. I've had sex with boyfriends in their shared houses, with their friends in other rooms, and never considered I was at risk of being raped. I'm horrified there are people out there who think I'd in some way invited rape.

OP posts:
gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 20:10

And yes, I have no doubt that if a predator were choosing a victim, he would stop a little longer in front of a woman who seemed to him as if she would be an easier target, whether that is because she was more drunk than the others, more isolated, or seemed more sexualised.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 20:06

If others are reading this thread, I'm glad they have been reminded that women are not responsible for sexual assaults. However I would be very sorry to think that anyone swallowed the contradictions and myths that are being put forward by 'feminists' on this thread.

There are people in our society, men and women, who will prey on others. Like any predator, they are most likely to prey on those with the least defences. Stranger rape is not a myth; the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism describes it like this:

'In the case of sexual assaults that occur among strangers or people who have just met, men who drink heavily may frequent settings, such as bars and parties, where women also tend to drink heavily and where a man can easily find an intoxicated woman to tar-get for a possible sexual assault.'

It is not a myth to say that your defences are lowered by alcohol. It has been acknowledged many times by almost everyone on this thread. It would be lovely if this wasn't an issue but it is. Although there are steps that women can take to reduce the risk that they will be a victim of rape, this doesn't mean that anyone is responsible for being raped. It's an important distinction that is summarised well in The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism:

'...approximately one-half of all sexual assault victims report that they were drinking alcohol at the time of the assault, with estimates ranging from 30 to 79 percent (Abbey et al. 1994; Crowell and Burgess 1996). It is important to emphasize, however, that although a woman’s alcohol consumption may place her at increased risk of sexual assault, she is in no way responsible for the assault. The perpetrators are legally and morally responsible for their behavior.'

The nature of the risk is unpacked further here:
'...drinking in potential sexual situations increases women’s risk of being sexually assaulted, both because sexually assaultive men may view them as easy targets and because the women may be less able to resist effectively.'

'Resist effectively' is later explained as having reduced ability to evaluate risk and to physically resist an attack by a rapist.

The article also identifies early misunderstandings in what kind of sexual relations the woman is open to as a risk factor for rape at a later stage which suggests that women are safer if they are clear about their level of interest from the outset although this has no bearing on the rapist's culpability if their wishes are overridden at a later stage:

'...American men are socialized to be the initiators of sexual inter-actions. Consequently, if a man is interested in having sex with a woman, he is likely to feel that he should make the first move. Initial sexual moves are usually subtle in order to reduce the embarrassment associated with potential rejection. Both men and women are used to this indirect form of establishing sexual interest and usually manage to make their intentions clear and save face if the other person is not interested (Abbey et al. 1996b). However, because the cues are subtle and sometimes vague, miscommunication can occur, particularly if communication skills are impaired by alcohol use. As male-female interaction progresses, a woman who has been misperceived as being interested in sex may realize that her companion is reading more into her friendliness than she intended. However, she may not feel comfortable giving a direct message of sexual disinterest, because traditional female gender roles emphasize the importance of being nice and “letting men down easy.” The man, in turn, may not take an indirect approach to expressing sexual disinterest seriously. Research on the power of stereotypes, expectancies, and self-fulfilling prophecies demonstrate that when people have an expectation about a situation or another person, they tend to observe and recall primarily the cues that fit their hypothesis and to minimize or ignore the cues that contradict their hypothesis. Consequently, when a man hopes that a woman is interested in having sex with him, he will pay most attention to the cues that fit his expectation and disregard cues that do not support his expectation. Studies with both perpetrators and victims have confirmed that the man’s misperception of the woman’s degree of sexual interest is a significant predictor of sexual assault (Abbey et al. 1996a, 1998). The process just described can occur even in the absence of alcohol use. However, alcohol consumption can exacerbate the likelihood of misperception, thereby increasing the chances of sexual assault.'

There is every reason for us to bring our sons up with the utmost respect for women and extreme caution in obtaining consent for sexual relations but unfortunately there is still every reason for us to bring our daughters up with a realistic understanding of the types of situations in which they are most at risk of being preyed upon.

Kimononono · 19/05/2016 19:58

Yes, I just can't get passed the 'fact' that this man thought it was perfectly OK to sleep with a woman who arrived with another man, aapparently made sexual advances to him, who he knew had been drinking all night, that the room was pitch black, the guy she was being intimate with had just slipped out the room to get viagra. Why would she do that? Why would she make this whole thing up ? What did she have to gain? He wasn't famous. This wasn't regret.

I believe her. My friend went through something similar although she didn't report it. She didnt report it because she blamed herself for being drunk.

venusinscorpio · 19/05/2016 18:44

Why exactly would wearing a bikini have any bearing on you being raped, gone? You do realise there's no evidence for that, don't you? It's a rape myth. Sadly a common one.

SilverBirchWithout · 19/05/2016 17:53

The trouble with that approach Gone is you are perpetuating the idea that certain women are culpable in their own rapes by supposed 'risky' behaviour. Therein lies the big issue around all rape, you are colluding in the perception that the poor men cannot help themselves if a woman behaves in specific ways.

If I walk down the road at night in dark clothing and a speeding driver knocks me over. It is not the dark clothing that killed me but the speeding driver.

Dervil like most non-rapist men can clearly identify that the accused's behaviour was not what most men would have done in the circumstances outlined in the trial.

This is nothing really to do with feminism, it's all about accepting certain men believe it is not their responsibility to ensure consent is clearly given. The judgement of this trial gives those type of men the benefit of the doubt and unfortunately relays a strong message that ensuring consent is really not that important.

AHellOfABird · 19/05/2016 17:53

Buffy, I think miss is saying that if women wear high vis vests, they won't get raped...? Or something equally sage.