Man cleared of rape after having sex with a woman who thought he was someone else

Felas, I am glad you started it or I wouldn't have known of the case.

I suspect it does if you're a xenophobic rape apologist who doesn't know shit about shit and wants to let the whole world know it.

Do you mean to imply that Germany is not a real patriarchy?

If Germany was not a real rape culture, than the sexual assaults those men committed in Cologne would have been much more severely punished. As things are, big German political parties have refused to change the laws that DO NOT CONSIDER GRABBING A WOMAN'S BREASTS ILLEGAL.

It is all a matter of degree. Yeah, those men are from a worse rape culture. This doesn't make German rape culture less real.

They did nothing wrong. When you get people from a real rape culture from a real patriarchy and a mass rape happens in a first world country you sit there dumbfounded

Eh, miss?

Of course not.

So, if you are victim blaming, what were the women in Cologne doing wrong, other than existing in a public space?

None of the victims in Cologne knew their attacker. Do we just sweep it under the carpet and say 'hmmm yes well ya see...... statistically women are more likely raped by people they know?'

So I do think there are behaviours that can make it less likely you are raped

I'm not quite sure why I'm highlighting this inane comment when there are so many to pick from but , hey ho.

"I know how I walk it- and everyone else I know - and it involves common sense"

No, no, you don't 'know'. You haven't met a rapist who, at the time, wanted to commit a rape yet, and I hope you continue to be that lucky.

Fair point, Dervel.

Also isn't the fact that so much heterosexual sex, has a lot in common with coercive/predatory/rape scenarios that we have these gray areas and blurred lines cause for concern?

Sorry for crappy quoting - the first para is gone's.

But dressing in the way that a model would in a lads mag (in which, let's be honest, women are dressed to appeal sexually to men) does seem as if it would be more likely to catch a predator's eye.

Or alternatively, that could be entirely in your rape-apologising, victim blaming little mind. A small group of convicted rapists (i.e. not the vast majority by all estimated figures, who never face any consequences) giving a self-serving reason for why they personally made the free choice to commit a violent crime is not really compelling evidence, is it?

But this is a rape myth that people find hard to give up. "It must have been at least a bit her fault, damn it! Otherwise it doesn't make any sense, and then it's possible I might become a victim, and there is not much I can do about it... no, it was definitely her behaviour and choices that were at fault! It won't happen to me!"

" However, if a predator had been looking for 'opportunity', my habit of walking home from a friend's student digs at 1 or 2am could have afforded that. "

A friend of mine back when I was a student was raped when returning home after dark... the thing is, it was 5.00pm and she was returning from lectures. What could she have done to make herself safe? Not gone to lectures? Not done a degree? Well no, obviously that would be absurd "keep yourself safe advice" and it never gets trotted out. Funnily enough the "keep yourself safe" advice only gets trotted out selectively, round activities which (risk of rape quite aside) many people disapprove of women doing - drinking, having one night stands with people they've just picked up. That's the thing about rape myths - they're not really about reducing risk at all, they're about providing rapists with a cultural narrative to use as an excuse to get them off if their case ever comes to court, and about separating women into "good, well behaved, sensible women" and "women who were asking for it."

When I think about my three closest calls, all of which required considerable amounts of persuasion to talk my way out of them - one was with a taxi driver on a contract to the firm I then worked for, bringing me back home from the airport after a business trip, and two were the classic scenarios of "acquaintance on the fringe of your circle of friends offers to walk you home, and you feel socially obliged to agree because 'everyone knows a woman on her own is at risk'". Not surprisingly, I feel safer walking alone or getting crowded public transport - but that is just my perception. I certainly wouldn't generalise to some daft statement about "you can reduce your risk by doing X, Y, Z" based on my small sample of experiences.

Having said that, the stats do bear out the fact that women are far more likely to be raped by men they know than by complete strangers.

The other thing worth bearing in mind vis a vis the "it's all a horrible misunderstanding" theory is that work by various criminologists (especially David Lisak) suggests that when you describe acts which meet the legal definition of rape, but leave the actual word "rape" out of the description, about 6% of men will admit to these acts. When you use the word "rape", the percentage drops to... drum roll... 5%. Which suggests that your average rapist in fact understands consent perfectly, he just doesn't care.

Just because it has been abused in the past, Dervel, doesn't mean the whole concept is useless. If you look at it in those terms it seems as if women will be vulnerable one way or the other - from a predator or a predatory 'protectionist' society - and it is up to them how they walk that line. I know how I walk it- and everyone else I know - and it involves common sense.

True enough Dervel, it's good also that the UN is specifically talking about rape as a weapon of war as it has been from time immemorial.

The threat of rape has been used to control female populations since time immemorial, and I'm not talking "do x or I'll rape you", but more of a "you need me to protect you from all the bad men out there".

This whole approach infantilizes women, I might advocate it but clearly rape has been a huge problem throughout history, so much so that even having protectors hasn't worked. The sad truth is its been a protection racket that has robbed women of their agency, and the racketeers are often the worst perpetrators.

That sounded as if I though that avoiding being raped is the only course of action - I don't think that. I do of course think that every deterrent and educational pressure/societal pressure available should be utilised in relation to the predator.

So, the upshot of opinion on MN is that men can't be held responsible for their criminality when it comes to rape because women should do whatever

That's not true. That's not what I would say. Women taking steps to avoid being the victim (in hell's case that would be looking both ways before you cross the road and not assuming every car is coming towards you at 30 mph in a 30 zone) does not have any bearing on the responsibility of a rapist. Unfortunately, the whole point about rapists is that they don't follow the rules. They don't give a damn about rules. So unless you have come up with a plan to eradicate evil from the world, you're left finding ways to avoid being the victim of it, provided you feel that is something you want to do. Personally, although I am very sorry that a rapist will find a victim somewhere, I see nothing wrong with making that job harder. I also believe there are behaviours that can make that job harder even if the rapist is known to the potential victim, so this doesn't fail to take into account that more rape occurs in that context.

I've said that twice, Palmer, but gone has neglected to engage re non-stranger rapes, probably because she's got even fewer legs to stand on. Heigh ho!

Hell, it also completely fails to recognise that the person you are most likely to be raped by is your partner or friend.

Maybe it would be best if men just all got shipped off to an island somewhere?

"opportunity plays a part when rapists are reporting that it does"

Well, there's a self justification element inherent in criminality, I'd say, but that's by the by.

Your whole premise is that risk of rape will be reduced if women don't do certain things. You are ignoring the point that, if women follow the 'rules' and are all sober, wearing trainers and tight jeans with difficult zips and cut their hair, rapists will rape a sober woman with short hair, jeans and trainers on.

If I never drive, I can't get hit by a speeding car, but someone else in the wrong place at the wrong time can be. That's why public service messages are 'don't speed' not 'don't drive'.

When did rapists stop being the "baddies" here?

Dervel, it's just indicative of how much society doesn't want to see men as rapists.

On any thread about rape on any part of MN, you'll get people saying:

Being accused of rape is the worst thing that could happen to a man.

Women can do X, Y or Z in order to "prevent" men from raping them.

Women lie about being raped

"I know a bloke who was accused of raping some bird, and she lied, etc etc" Which suggests that people on MN know a huge number of the tiny proportion of men who are falsely accused.

So, the upshot of opinion on MN is that men can't be held responsible for their criminality when it comes to rape because women should do whatever and then men wouldn't do it any more. It's discouraging, but it does go some way toward explaining why so many men get away with raping women.

No, Dervel, I don't have personal experience of being assaulted, I'm thankful to say.

I look back at some things I did when I was younger, though, and can see quite clearly that I was lucky. Nothing I did deserved or invited rape - and I would say that regardless of what I'd done. However, if a predator had been looking for 'opportunity', my habit of walking home from a friend's student digs at 1 or 2am could have afforded that. Sadly, another girl was raped on exactly the same walk on a night when it so happened I was safely in my dorm. It didn't perhaps make the impression on me that it should have done, beyond feeling very sorry for her at the time.

What I can see is that a rapist looking to rape someone that particular night might well have hung around that street and not found anyone if no one had been out walking on their own. Perhaps he would have gone elsewhere, perhaps not. If no one chose to walk around on their own in the middle of the night elsewhere either (and this is a price that most women think is worth paying), perhaps he would have failed to come up with a victim at all on that occasion. Which could only have been a good thing.

So I do think there are behaviours that can make it less likely you are raped.