Man cleared of rape after having sex with a woman who thought he was someone else

'They seem a bit off'

WTF is that supposed to mean?! Is that the best you can do to clarify the difference between a rapist and non rapist? It's so subjective!

If the woman can make a mistake about whether or not she is consenting, the other party certainly can make a mistake about it!

Rape can ruin lives and is of course abhorrent, but a false accusation of rape is also a devastating thing.

Totally fair - again - unless you are totally sure that the person really wants to be having sex with you, DON'T DO IT.

If you're at a party, and you've just met someone, and they seem a bit off, don't risk being a rapist.

To use your own words gone:
For their own safety, they need to develop instincts and try to work it out. This is not about blaming anyone. It's about safety.

Men need to 'develop instincts' about when they might be raping someone, it's about people's safety not to be raped.

That's interesting bear. Are you saying that a man who slept with you in that condition could have been genuinely mistaken about whether you were consenting?

Because I think that's the rub here. I suspect you wouldn't have known yourself if you were genuinely consenting until afterwards. And rather than acknowledge that poor choices on your part was a contributing factor, you would be likely to decide you must have been raped. Not fair.

Yy Palmer.

I can't think of another sphere of friendly human interaction where checking the other party is happy is seen by many to be a ridiculously overbearing requirement!

It is weird isn't it?

"Hmm, I wonder if Freda wants tea or coffee?"

So you ask her.

"Hmm, I wonder if Freda wants to have sex with me?"

It's unreasonable of the world to expect me to ask her, so I'll stick my dick in her and we'll go from there.

So, asking someone is they want something is ok, but making sure that something you want to do with someone isn't going to make you a violent criminal is completely unreasonable, and expecting men to to that is living in a utopian dreamland.

You really don't think much of men's mental capacity do you, gone?

"I still think I'd know perfectly well if a different bloke had got back into my bed"

Maybe, maybe not. You are very drunk, in bed with a man you've just met, it's dark, you have fallen asleep or half asleep, the man gets up, a man comes back and lies down. Your brain is surely going to jump to, "oh, hello again" not "who are you?"

And she did know it, according to the article, when she touched the hair. Unfortunately, at this point, the accused had already put his dick into her. It's unclear how long between lying down and penetration, but that doesn't sound like a huge amount of time passed for her to have a chance for such realisation beforehand.

I still think I'd know perfectly well if a different bloke had got back into my bed.

Good for you.

Back when I was in my late teens/early 20s, I had more than one occasion where I had a total blackout. (One of several reasons I tend not to drink these days.) Apparently I was mostly coherent, following conversations and so on, but the next day, I had absolutely no memory at all of what was going on. In that state, I probably wouldn't have known if a different man had got into bed, though a man with me might well have thought I was capable of consenting, particularly if he didn't know me particularly well.

Even if I weren't as drunk as losing my memory, my senses of taste and smell tend to get quite impaired. I very much doubt I am at all unique, so I can quite believe other women would also not know when drunk. If you don't get like that when drunk, then you're lucky.

In every other walk of life, being a bit unclear -"hmm, I'm not sure if bob wanted the chicken or beef pie" - is readily solved by a quick question.

When it comes to sex, however, it's suddenly utterly unreasonable to expect something similar, " oh, she seems to like me, but she's very drunk and was just in here with my mate, bit of a 'mixed message' - clearly I should solve this dilemma by inserting my dick, not opening my mouth for a simple question."

"In the scenario of the OP, we actually have a woman who has, without invitation, got into the accused's bed. I'm all for not blaming the victim but I am struggling to see how her behaviour is anything but totally irresponsible and potentially confusing. Presumably she was aware that at some point he would be hoping to go to bed?"

What nonsense. The man she was with invited her into the bedroom. If the owner of the flat didn't want them to use his bedroom he could have said so - to both of them.

As AHell points out the confusing signals were being given by viagra man. Indeed by the 2 men; by viagra man behaving as if he had permission to use the bedroom and by the flat owner by saying nothing to contradict viagra man.

There are no mixed messages, there is either consent or not.

The mixed messages lie is one that men tell each other when they aren't sure if they might be a rapist.

You're being incredibly disingenuous, gone. Why should she have known whose bed it was? She was with the other guy. He invited her into it.

I would have thought him admitting that he knew she was drunk would have made it clear he hadn't obtained proper consent. Obviously not.

You said:

"In the scenario of the OP, we actually have a woman who has, without invitation, got into the accused's bed. I'm all for not blaming the victim but I am struggling to see how her behaviour is anything but totally irresponsible and potentially confusing. Presumably she was aware that at some point he would be hoping to go to bed?"

Surely his mate, who knew full well it was his bedroom, unlike the stranger to the flat, was the one giving potentially confusing signals? If she'd been the one to get up and nip to the loo, would he have been justified in sticking his dick in his mate?

Oh, and she was in that bed by invitation of a bloke she liked and wanted to be in sexual contact with. So yes, you are a lying liar who lies.

gone

You are indeed right...about the bed if nothing else

How did she know it was his bed? She obviously got into the bed with the original viagra man, maybe she didnt do her due dilligence and just assumed she was in his bed

It wouldnt occur to me that i was in the wrong bed

Some men think things like simply smiling or saying hello at them is an invite, how the hell is a woman supposed to know which men to adjust her behaviour around? How does she tell which men equate a "yes" to a drink to "yes" to sex too?

Its seems like another way to blame women for the actions of men.

For their own safety, they need to develop instincts and try to work it out. This is not about blaming anyone. It's about safety.

What fairytale world are you all living in in? Don't you care about the real world that women are actually inhabiting? Or do you prefer to sit around thinking about a utopian existence in which women could roam naked and free while every men averted his gaze?

Bizarre.

Oh, and I didn't lie. it was, indeed, his bed.

I don't get the mixed messages thing. What counts as a mixed message?

Some men think things like simply smiling or saying hello at them is an invite, how the hell is a woman supposed to know which men to adjust her behaviour around? How does she tell which men equate a "yes" to a drink to "yes" to sex too?

Its seems like another way to blame women for the actions of men.

In every other aspect of life men are capable of knowing when someone doesn't want something given or doing to them, like if a men felt like brushing long hair, he'd be called a weirdo for just brushing someone hair without asking because he thought that if shes happy to have it brushed then they are happy for him to brush it and if they don't want their hair brushing by anyone other than someone who she wants to brush it then she should hide their long hair or get it cut, and she shouldn't do things like go to the hairdressers because it's a mixed message.

There doesn't seem to be any confusion about boundaries, respect and consent to everything other than women's bodies. Why is that?

Perhaps we could design an app for that?

We could call it "Mansplain"

Yeah, if I found a man had, without invitation, gotten into my bed while I wasn't there, having sex with him would be the last thing on my mind.
If he was drunk, I'd just assume he had mistaken it for his bed and get someone to throw him out.

Sadly Fela, wearing a burka and having a male chaperone at all times doesn't seem to prevent you getting raped, although I understand that courts are less likely to stone you to death for being raped if your male chaperone has been incapacitated but still conscious to act as a witness.

You could also be raped by your male chaperone, sadly. Not all women have a trustworthy male relative, much less one who is willing to spend most of his time chaperoning them.

Learning self-defense and never leaving the house in a group smaller than five women might help to not be raped in the first place. (Of course, no males can live in the house. Allowing a male to live with you would result in automatic blame if he rapes you.)

Probably a nun-like lifestyle, about thirty women per house, only going out in groups of five, would be the safest approach. The nun's habit would also serve the same purpose as a burka ...

"we actually have a woman who has, without invitation, got into the accused's bed. "

That's really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Even if it were true, it's still not an invitation to him to have sex with her.

gone

If you cant be arsed to read the thread properly or any of the details of the case then maybe you should be more careful with your "facts"

Yeah, that makes sense.

I notice gone hasn't commented on the "man went into wrong hotel room and recklessly penetrated unknown sleeping woman" case. He was found not guilty so presumably that woman must have done something wrong, sleeping behind a locked door and all, because The Law must always provide the right answer, no need to examine it or query the jury's thinking...

Problem is Hell, that without lying, they don't have much justification.

"we actually have a woman who has, without invitation, got into the accused's bed. "

This is not what happened.

She and bloke she liked got a lift back from the accused to the accused's flat. Bloke she liked then took her into accused's bedroom (how the hell would she know it wasn't his bedroom).

Bloke she liked left room naked. Accused entered room, nudged her to leave and then lay down next to her.

This is according to the accused's own account in the article.

Don't lie, gone.