Other threads on Mumsnet.

Why didn't I? Good question! All of the above and as it was a nice holiday atmosphere on the island I felt more charitable than if it had been in the UK, pp are much friendlier on holiday so gave him the benefit of the doubt. Still pissed me off tho. 🖕is what I really wanted to do!

In relation to the particular thread you mentioned, you should post there, not here.
It may only seem that "MN" is gaslighting the OP because hardly anyone with a different opinion challenges it.
Don't be afraid of confronting those you don't agree with.

It is bad form to start a different thread to comment on that one, yes.

I did, rather ungraciously but really I wanted to say fuck you!

Why didn't you? Or went on ignoring him? Were you afraid he might become violent if you refused? Or just socialisation?

He totally deserved a "Fuck you". Entitled asshole, should be grateful you didn't reply to his unwarranted comment in the first place.

I'd like to say something about being polite, although I know the discussion has moved on since then. I was on holiday in Ibiza last week and it was lovely and hot so one day I was wearing a green maxi dress and walking around the town with my friend. A bloke shouted out 'nice dress' which I ignored. Then he shouted out ' say thank you!'. I did, rather ungraciously but really I wanted to say fuck you! He wasn't commentating on my sartorial elegance but on my body. I'm quite busty and I just know when men comment on my clothes what they really mean is 'nice tits' ( yuk ).

I didn't see this bloke, he was behind me but I completely agree women are socialised into being polite even when they don't want to be and are in fact being insulted.

What gives men the right to judge and comment on women's bodies? Sometimes I see men so fat they actually look like they're pregnant and ( a v bad ) part of me wants to say something mean like ' when's it due?' Of course I don't ( even though I've had similar comments made to me ), because I'm not mean but also because I would be afraid of the violence it could potentially provoke.

Does that make sense?

Agree about the term 'lady'. To me it makes me think of 'ladylike' and the qualities that are associated such as demure, modest, feminine, polite, things that are ' naturally' associated with being female. And to be bold, daring, outspoken, forthright etc is ' unladylike'. It's a way of keeping women in their place. And it works.

I have put my thoughts together on why people might think that the term lady would be anti-feminist. The only reason I can come up with is that it embodies characteristics that makes sure women are put in their place.

That, too, but by routinely using the term "lady" to address women, one also confirms the misogynist notion that to be a woman is a bad thing and an euphemism has to be used. (Fun fact - the German term that directly translates to "lady" is used synonymous with "woman" nowadays, and almost no one ever uses the actual word for "woman" anymore, except in established words like that for "washerwoman", etc., and then it is usually an insult, e.g. "gossiping like ..._women",)

It may be meant well by many people who say "lady" instead of "woman", but in the end it leads to "woman" becoming totally inacceptable, a kind of slur.

There also is a particular kind of man who likes to use the term "lady" to try and flatter women while he secretly detests us.
If I find an example, I'll give you a link. I know it when I see it, but it is hard to explain.

MyCrispBag it's always worth intervening on a thread and saying something if you want to - that is what it is here for.

If I feel an op is getting a hard time I will also sometimes PM them a word of encouragement, because that way I feel sure they will see it but may not if they get lots of negative messages and I just post on the thread - actually I usually do both.

Women are always being told how to think. how to dress, what to do, what not to do, - men- not so much.

When you mention this enough times other people do take notice, other women think 'hey yes that is right, it was going over my head!" I know because sometimes it goes over my head. And I've been a feminist for over 30 years!

Since finding Mumsnet feminist boards (and my first disastrous post!) I've toughened up and also got a lot angrier, I think angry is sometimes a good place to be (righteous anger not just angry!).

I have put my thoughts together on why people might think that the term lady would be anti-feminist. The only reason I can come up with is that it embodies characteristics that makes sure women are put in their place. Thinking about it, when people use lady they refer to the behaviour of the woman and how she fits patriarchal standard of a well behaved woman. Any woman that breaks the rules of being a lady by acting like a man is given negative name.

To some degree being a lady can be hindrance to females, it doesn't accommodate brashness and most of the acceptable male behaviours that are admired and helps them further their careers.

If it's based on what it means to be a lady, they may actually have a point. Interesting and thought provoking.

In my youth, I read an article that defined this space-giving-up thing as it still being men's space to give. That, when the man thinks about it, he might make the grandiose gesture, but that the unthinking "default" setting is that it's his space and he just shoves right through.

So, even when they're allegedly being polite, they're still reminding us How It Really Is: "Here. I'm letting you go first..."

I say this, btw, as somebody who revels in courtesy displayed from either gender. In a day-to-day setting, 99.99% of the time I don't analyse door holding (I try not to, frankly). But even still, I can tell the difference between somebody generally being polite and somebody making the grandiose gesture. The fact that I can saddens me a little.

Um, yes. I didn't say the term 'lady' was sexist, though actually I think it is - some of the responses (which I've vaguely paraphrased) were picking up on people objecting to this word but mostly they were around the phrase itself - it was the phrase that was used and all the connotations that you mention that were problematic. But people refused to see this. That was my point.

Iisme It's not the term lady that is sexist, it the "ladies first" that would be if it came from a man. I didn't read through the thread even though I read the open post. It's not about being polite. It's men trying to exert their dominance over females. Why didn't he just say "you go first" or whatever vocabulary that is out there. What if the woman wanted to go first, the male insisted on the female going first because she is female and his manners dictates that females always go first ? Why wouldn't that be wrong if what women want is equality?

For me it might be good manners but it still makes women vulnerable at the hands of men. Staying behind to protect the women. To rescue a project presentation when she does it wrong. Incase a woman is not looking behind her, the man is right their as the saviour.

Little thinks like that affects us subconsciously on how great we are. What boundaries we can push.

I can see how in the old age it would be fair to save the females and not the males. It's easier to continue a tribe with lots of females and just one fertile male. We don't need that any more.

People who want to go first should be able to but no one should be forced into it.

Actually, I usually think the majority of people on mumsnet are quite 'right thinking' and more or less feminist (not all of them obviously). But there are some shockers around at the moment. The one about the women who found the term 'ladies first' vaguely annoying is making me very cross! Endless posts saying stuff like 'but he's just trying to be polite!', 'this sounds considerate and nice', 'there's nothing sexist about the word 'lady'', 'can't men even be kind anymore!' until the OP comes back and acknowledges that, yes, she was being totally U to find anything problematic in this. Grrr!

Hi Lass! Pretty sure someone said she was anti-feminist, that was the bit where I gave up reading as it was all getting a bit nasty. I fully agree that it was none of her business, but I don't think she was asking the ex-wife to change, just saying that she found it difficult? Which is understandable, but also a case of tough luck.

The problem the OP on that thread is her problem. Cards on the table, I don't understand why one would change one's name in the first place and far less why one would retain it after the divorce. But plenty of people do.

However the OP has no right whatsoever to expect the ex-wife to accommodate her wishes.

Was she being accused of being "anti-feminist "? Isn't just a case of it being none of her business and the AIBU was her thinking she had any say in the matter.

Can I change the topic a little by asking opinions on another thread that is related to feminism? If this is rude I'm happy to start a new one . There was a thread a few days ago where the OP got an almost unanimous roasting for saying that she felt uncomfortable about her DP's ex-DW still having his name. PPs were saying she was being completely anti-feminist. I suppose the issue of women changing their names upon marriage is a bit of a feminist minefield I made my views quite clear on the thread I'm talking about. Surely accusing someone who says she'd find it more reasonable if a divorced woman reverted back to her birth name rather than continuing to have her ex-husband's name of being an anti-feminist is the world on its head? Surely the problem the OP was experiencing is today with an inherently sexist tradition - the continuing implicit expectation that women will take their husband's name upon marriage in the first place? Seems a bit unfair to accuse her of being anti-feminist or sexist because she is experiencing personal problems as a result of it...

There was a thread on her a while ago (talking about other threads) where a delivery guy used the OP's mobile number from the OP's order to text her that she had a nice smile. Then he called her and texted her again. She felt it was inappropriate and made her feel insecure. here

Most of the comments were of the supportive sort but I recall that one of the comments was "you don't want to completely squash his confidence" in approaching women.

It had a real vibe of 'Just put up with feeling unsafe and violated because the important thing here is that this bloke is not made to feel bad in any way. Doesn't matter if you feel bad even though you did nothing wrong. It's how he feels that is important'.

Thanks Trills - I've never really thought about differences in politeness before. Just seen some rude gits on both sides but most people are pretty decent.

Given me something to have a think about.

Men are socialised to be polite where politeness is required.

Women are socialised to be polite even when someone is being rude or threatening or unpleasant. It's our job to put up with it, or even to diffuse the situation.
We mustn't cause a fuss, even if we feel someone in being inappropriate.
Our opinions and feelings don't matter, we must always put the feelings of other people first.

I've never (at least I don't remember) been told to cheer up. I guess I must wander around looking like all the time.

Dh doesn't get told to cheer up but he constantly gets comments on his appearance - that he looks a lot younger than his years.

Are men really socialised not to be polite? I've done some kind of customer based job for the past 20 years. In both rough as fuck areas and very middle class professional areas. Most people are pretty polite - yes you get complete arses but I always found the split pretty even.

Unless the issue was violent or threatening in which case there was definitely more from the men. Both men and women could be rude though, but they were the exception not the norm.

Good topic :)

it's not just about allure is it? It's just a total invasion of your space

I agree - it's about some people thinking that they are entitled to be given smiles. They deserve to have other people make that extra effort to make their world a nicer place.

Nope. You have no idea how much effort it might cost me to smile at you, but even if it's "only a little", you still have no right to demand that from me. It's my face.

I cursed out some builders recently for telling me to smile. Hadn't happened in a while (I'm in my 40s!) but it made me realise it's not just about allure is it? It's just a total invasion of your space. I had extra rage because I thought of my lovely daughter as she approaches adolescence and all the crap that she'll get

Articulated just fine. It's about one group of people not being recognised as individuals, with socially recognised boundaries. They aren't a house, where you knock on the door to gain entry; they're a public park! With a house, you break in: it's against the law; you stand outside shouting: it's a public nuisance.

My belief is this: there is a huge cloak of invisibility hanging over gender power imbalances: if a woman 'senses' her boundaries are being violated ('It makes me feel uncomfortable. I can't really say why.'), then they are almost certainly being eroded big time.

Good luck, OP.