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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would Tess of the D'Urbervilles have been raped or seduced, according to today's laws in the UK?

56 replies

KindDogsTail · 06/05/2016 23:48

Tess of the D'Urbervilles was discussed by Melvin Bragg and his guests yesterday on radio 4 In Our Time www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b078zcrr
The question came: was she raped or seduced? One speaker said it was clear that Tess had not wanted it to happen, but consensus seemed to be that it is not clear whether she was raped or seduced.

I re-read Chapters 11 and 12 and it seemed to me that it was certainly rape. In my opinion the book, though in a subtle way, describes acquaintance rape. It even seems that Tess was half asleep when it happened.

I understand that when it was written Tess herself would have been blamed for having been with the perpetrator, and for not fighting him. Also, as she was not attacked, in those days, (and in these as far as some are concerned) this would have been evidence that she just seccumbed to seduction but not actually been raped. Now, however I feel sure she had not given consent.

Some people who may have been raped in this way might have been listening and felt rather concerned that the people discussing the book seemed so uncertain.

I was wondering what other people think.

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KindDogsTail · 07/05/2016 15:38

I have listened to the programme again. This does not include a transcript of the whole programme which was 49 mins long, but just the parts talking about the rape scene which came mostly near the end of the discussion.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b078zcrr

We were told that the novel as Thomas Hardy first wrote it was rejected by two publishers, to whom he had submitted the first half of the novel, by one on the grounds that it was immoral and the other because it was too succulent. The third accepted it as a serialised graphic novel in a bowdlerized version and published it in 1891.

Hardy reissued it as the novel we have now in1892 (13:00 mins).

Melvyn Bragg was the host. There were three speakers:
Francis O'Gorman University of Leeds
Jane Thomas University of Hull
Dinah Birch University of Liverpool

In discussing why the novel was rejected by the first two publishers for immorality and succulence, we were told that Hardy had submitted the first half which contained the scene that,

Might have been a rape, or might have been a seduction but we can argue about that if we have time Melvyn Bragg 11:55mins

Melvyn Bragg went on to explain that the novel was intended to evoke our sympathy and compassion for a pure woman and her inexorable fate. He mentioned

'How her body speaks to others 15: 40 and was both an invitation and a threat.' MB

He began to talk about Alec Durberville:

32:53
^Alec's lust enabled him to act very badly. Did he or did he not rape her?..we've got to ask that
question, it's got to come up. Please, we have not got..^MB

34:17
Now then, what happened? MB

34:33
We can't know. The one thing we can be certain of is that whatever happened was not of Tess's choosing. That, ..uh, whether it was explicitly physical rape, or whether because her resistance was worn out because she was exhausted, we can't know. Because of course there's a sense in which nothing happened except in our imagination. (Jane Thomas or Dinah Birch)

But a baby comes out of it. That's quite something. M B

Yes, yes, but the baby....all of these things are fictional constructs....if you take my point.'JT or DB

35:00
But I'm reading the novel. I think novels are not just fictional constructs, they are the life of people we believe in...MB

True JT or DB

'Our imagination goes out to them and they become just as real as you three...Tess is as real as any of you here.' MB

35:20
We can never come up with an explicit answer as to what happened in The Chase.. JT

' just asked you why not MB

Because...because...because, as Francis has said, a lot of the crucial actions take place, as it were, off stage. It is one of the things he learnt from Greek Tragedy. You know..that you don't actually perform in front of the eyes of your audiences or reader. Because, in a sense, the consequences are so disastrous you could say that the question of whether it was an explicit rape, or whether it was some kind of forced seduction, ..doesn't in the end matter to what happened to Tess. JT or DB

Francis wants to say something MB

I think that it's worth saying that the first readers of the graphic version did experience a very different account of this. Because in that version we don't see anything of....seduction, rape...whatever it is. What we know is that Tess goes back home, that she says she had been tricked by Alec into a false marriage by a false registrar and she had lived with Alec for a week, But there was no baby Francis O'Gorman.

The woman speaker seems to evade a lot of the question by means of the academic trope that we can't know because Hardy uses the devise of Greek Tragedy to have events happen outside our view. In practice Hardy makes it clear enough what happened.

Francis O'Gorman's remark that in the original we don't see anything of seduction rape, whatever it is, it was only clear that Tess had been tricked into a false marriage - begs the mention that this would in modern times this would be rape too. Moreover, though F O'G was talking about the Graphic 1891 version, he failed to mention that in this Alec had also drugged Tess - another act of rape by modern standards.

In The Sense of Sex: Feminist Perspectives on Hardy
By Margaret R. Higonnet
we would have seen another expert who clearly recognises that Tess was raped
.
books.google.co.uk/books?id=0AVXa3y4ghsC&pg=PA104&dq=thomas+hardy+tess+ingham&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwip4rmIiMjMAhXrCsAKHanj

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shinynewusername · 07/05/2016 11:28

I still dislike Angel Clare even more

Agree, I loathe the self-righteous Angel.

KindDogsTail · 07/05/2016 11:11

Thanks very much Lurcio. What a wonderful analysis you have written..
You and AllltheDrama have explained it so very lucidly, and AllTh's updated version is a brilliant explanation of the events for any younger readers.

Both should be in literature study guide books in my opinion.

From other people's answers, I feel vindicated in being upset by the programme not having taken more of a stand.

Before posting this thread, I wrote in to the In Our Own Times contact last night. I hope the message gets through.

Now I am going to double check and listen again, but other listeners seem to have had the same impression as I did.

It is quite extraordinary that Hardy was so ahead of his time in showing the incremental grooming - just as Lurcio described.

Back to the book: It is also horrible that the end of Chapter 12 makes it clear that Tess's mother had set her up as bait - knowing full well what the implications might be, while also being too stupid to realise Alec would not have bothered marrying her any way - but had purposely not told her.

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KindDogsTail · 07/05/2016 10:43

That is very interesting THeOnlyLivingBoyIn NewCross That is so absolutely rape too.
AyeAmarok Thanks for answering.
I am going to listen again now to see if they said anything to make it clear that, though in Victorian times people might not have been clear that Tess had not consented to the sexual act that took place, in our own time it is clear she had not consented to this and it would have been rape.

I'll listen out to which text they might have been referring to also OnlyBoy

As the programme is called In Our Own Time, you would have thought some clear mention would have been made that it was definitely rape according to modern ethics and law.

Young people, among whom some will have recently been victims of un-reported 'date' rape at school and university even as we have this discussion, and older people who were raped in a similar way, might have heard the programme and felt confused and let down that the speakers said it was not clear.

A fictional character can stand for real paradigms. The programme
not defining it as rape ( at least in our own time) adds to rape culture in my opinion.

If an say, Eastenders rape had been discussed, there would have also been an advice line mentioned after the programme and on the website. I was not aware of one. I'll check that again.

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claraschu · 07/05/2016 09:26

I remember it as rape too (read it 35 years ago). I think if it were seduction, the reader would feel a bit seduced too (if you know what I mean); as the book stands, the reader feels disgusted and repulsed.

Very interesting about the two versions- really shows how Hardy was thinking.

LurcioAgain · 07/05/2016 09:17

Fascinating discussion, and I love your modern day re-write, AlltheDrama. Absolutely, it is rape, and I think not just in retrospect applying modern standards - I think Hardy wants us to see it that way.

Interesting about you seeing it as Hardy torturing his character, Trills - I read it as a very clever piece of writing in a time where the surrounding moral values would typically have pre-disposed the reader to have no sympathy with a girl who "lost her virtue." I think Hardy gets the reader inside her head brilliantly. You see the "grooming" process for what it is, the careful way D'Urberville corners her in a web of financial obligation, the way he offers "help" which turns out to be a pretext to get her alone in the middle of nowhere, still does the "nice guy" pretence (coat round shoulders), tries to guilt-trip her ("I'm so in love with you, I've been so nice to you, why don't you love me?") then rapes her. (And then most chillingly, leaves her feeling guilty because, after all, he's done so much to earn her love, and she's said to him several times that she can't love him... and in a patriarchal society that puts her in the wrong for pouring scorn on an honest man's attentions, so what's any decent red blooded male gonna do then? Ugh.) And you see it how it seems to Tess - alarm bells are not just ringing, they're going full klaxon, but because of the web of obligation, social expectations, the power structures surrounding her, she can't do anything about it. I find it chilling because I've had a couple of near-misses in terms of situations which could have ended in date rape, and which started exactly that way, with the man engineering a situation where I felt socially obliged to let him walk me home because he was doing it "for me".

I actually think in a society where if Hardy had said outright "and then he raped her", most people would have gone "you what?", it's a very clever piece of writing to get people to question the wrongness of D'Urberville's behaviour when they might well have started out saying "oh, that's just how things go for girls from the lower orders who aren't as virtuous as our daughters".

PattyPenguin · 07/05/2016 09:14

My reading of it is that Hardy himself believed that it was rape.

I've always regarded Hardy as a pretty feminist writer - he's very hot on double standards.

He's also good on the imbalance of power between social classes as well as between the sexes. In my opinion.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 07/05/2016 09:02

Did you know that there are two editions of the text? The one that most people are familiar with is the 1892 version, which Hardy revised from his 1891 version. In the latter, Alec "went to the horse, took a druggist's bottle from a parcel on the saddle, and...held it to her mouth unawares. Tess sputtered and coughed, and...swallowed as he poured." And later we are told how "some sons of the forest" were unaware that "their sister was in the hands of the spoiler"

AyeAmarok · 07/05/2016 08:55

I also listened to this yesterday day and felt very uncomfortable about how they were talking about whether it was a rape (I think they initially used the term "physical rape"?).

It was definitely rape to me.

KindDogsTail · 07/05/2016 08:50

Wolpertinger
So some of what she does, eg getting on the horse, is consensual but as she says 'I never understood your meaning until it was too late' - never consented to sex.

Yes, she consented to the horse rise - but not to sex. Rape

AllThe Drama That was a brilliant synopsis in modern terms, thank you.

SpringSpring in Victorian times she would undoubtedly have been blamed. She went to his family in the first place, she flirted, she got on the horse, she did not fight him. In those days a lady would not have even been alone wit a man and if she were she would have been blamed/ruined.

But it does seem clear she was actually asleep when he did it, and the words Hardy writes afterwards such as her guardian angel had not been there seem to suggest he thought there was no consent.

Freshwater I am relieved you noticed this in the programme too.
I do not think I heard them suggest that it would not have been clear in Vistorian times, but in ours we would call it rape.

Tinkly I thought the same about Angel.

When She Was BAd I have copied lines from Chapter 11 & !2 in the first posts that I thought relevant to the rape question.

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FinallyHere · 07/05/2016 08:36

So glad to read these comments, i feel that i have found my people. Although Ive read Hardy, I always find his idea that people, well, let's face it, women, are so trapped in their own circumstances that there is no hope for them, so very, very depressing.

As PP pointed out, he even points out, oh, look, silly girl about to do the wrong thing again, silly little thing. Urgh.

Trills · 07/05/2016 08:13

I really don't like that book.

The author seems to enjoy torturing Tess.

There are occasional asides when the author says If, at this point, Tess had done X, everything would have been OK. Unfortunately all her experiences up to this point led her to believe that Y was the right thing to do. Watch what happens now

Lellyloulou · 07/05/2016 08:06

I think it's rape and doc when I read it.

Love the book though is very sad. Agree re Angel Clare. Arse.

Wolpertinger · 07/05/2016 08:04

I always thought it was rape, even as a teenager in the late 80s. She fancies Alec, she is flirting with him but she thinks he may marry her - she hasn't understood the power dynamic means that is never going to happen.

So some of what she does, eg getting on the horse, is consensual but as she says 'I never understood your meaning until it was too late' - never consented to sex.

'Confused surrender' - she isn't consenting but can't get out of the sex so effectively stays quite while he rapes her, still in hopes that this is a meaningful encounter that will lead to a legitimate relationship.

And yes, Angel Clare was spectacularly hateable.

SanityClause · 07/05/2016 07:54

I studied this at school in the 80s.

The teacher told us she thought it was important to the story that she was seduced, and not raped, but now I think it probably didn't matter to Tess, in the Victorian world she lived in. Either way, she was "spoiled goods".

I agree that it is rape, viewed through modern eyes, though, whatever the Victorians would have thought.

I must re-read it.

ivegotdreadfulpmttoday · 07/05/2016 07:44

When I read it years ago (in the 1980s so attitudes different even to now) I thought she was raped.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 07/05/2016 07:41

I have to confess I've never read Tess. But I did listen to In Our Time yesterday.

Even I was wondering why they were debating whether or not she was raped.

AllTheDrama · 07/05/2016 07:15

Think it's awful that they were making it even doubtful. I thought even in the older context the book couched the actual 'action' in a vague description, as was probably necessary, but still made it clear. The whole theme of the book is how Tess' downfall was due to the poor actions of the men around her and her inability to cope with this/live up to what was expected of her as a woman.

I really hope they weren't in doubt about the scene as rape in terms of modern morals/laws though! If it was put in a modern context - a young woman's father gets blind drunk so she has to drive the car home, she falls asleep and writes off the car so goes to find work so they can buy a new one. She has a sleazy boss who sexually harasses her but she's too naive to realise, then walking home one day she accidentally spills her can of Coke over another woman who picks a fight with her. Her boss comes by and offers her a lift and she accepts to get out of the fight, then instead of taking her home he takes her on a scenic drive until she's too far from home to walk back. He says he's lost, and the car's running out of petrol, so he goes off to find directions, letting her know before he goes that he's bought her father a new car and Xboxes for all the kids. She's gutted as now it's clear to her he fancies her and now she owes him even though she doesn't fancy him at all. She dozes off in the car, he comes back while she's asleep and starts having sex with her, then when she wakes up she's too overawed and shocked to fight him.

That would not only be rape, that would be huge Daily Mail 'what is the world coming to' fodder when all the details were picked over in court, so is it just the romantic idea of being seduced on horseback clouding the issue?

SpringSpringSpring · 07/05/2016 06:44

I didn't listen to the programme but for the book to work as a whole I think it has to be unclear. There has to be some potential for her to be responsible for her downfall. It's a while since I read it though, probably time for a re-read.

FreshwaterSelkie · 07/05/2016 06:39

I don't know if I missed a bit - were they discussing rape as it would have been viewed in Hardy's time, or as we would view it now? Because it would make more sense if it had been the former, and I can stop frothing over persistent rape myths...!

FreshwaterSelkie · 07/05/2016 06:35

I listened to the show yesterday too and I wasn't too impressed with how they were discussing whether it was rape or not. They seemed to take as a starting point that there wasn't any reason to believe that Tess consented, and then moved onto trying to analyse if Tess was "really" raped, or whether she was "forcibly seduced", but to me, that's rape and rape. I think they were trying to distinguish if he'd used any violence or threats, as if that were the distinguishing feature of rape, rather than the non-consent. I was really surprised at that, as the level of discussion on IOT is usually so high, and is so good about taking a female perspective, as they're so hot on getting women guests. Bit disappointed really.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 07/05/2016 02:08

I think he rapes her.

Strangely I still dislike Angel Clare even more.

KindDogsTail · 07/05/2016 01:36

SealSong
When I read the book it stood out clearly as rape to me.
To me too, as I said but during the radio discussion, surprisingly they said it was not clear. I wonder if by chance they presumed it could not be rape because it was not by attack?

I think Melvin Bragg may have thought it was, but he was not the expert so to speak, he was eliciting responses from the other speakers.

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KindDogsTail · 07/05/2016 01:28

She had dreaded him, winced before him, succumbed to adroit advantages he took of her helplessness; then, temporarily blinded by his ardent manners, had been stirred to confused surrender awhile Timely you suggest this means she consented.

But this is at a point when she is looking back. She is referring to the circumstances that lead to her being with him in the first place and getting into his orbit I believe.

We learn she had been seeing him for three months.

In the lead up to the rape she was on a horse with him while he supposedly was taking her where she needed to go. In the quote you gave she may also have blamed herself for taking up his offer of accompanying her and getting on the horse with him.

When she realised he had been meandering on the route on purpose and not taking her to the destination, she tried to get away.

How could you be so treacherous!" said Tess, between archness and real dismay, and getting rid of his arm by pulling open his fingers one by one, though at the risk of slipping off herself. "Just when I've been putting such trust in you, and obliging you to please you, because I thought I had wronged you by that push! Please set me down, and let me walk home

He said they were lost and she could only go once he had made sure where they were, meanwhile she was to wait while he did this. He gave her his coat and she sat down on a pile of leaves. The horse stood nearby.

Before going he he let her now he had given her father a horse and her siblings toys making her feel obliged. She was crying in desperation because she realised he liked her but she did not return the feelings.

He went off on a walk out of the woods to get an idea of where they were.

She was eextremely exhausted and fell asleep on the leaves, Then when he came back she was quite definitely still asleep.

He knelt and bent lower, till her breath warmed his face, and in a moment his cheek was in contact with hers. She was sleeping soundly, and upon her eyelashes there lingered tears.

Then we learn her guardian angel had not been with her.

What happened to her is compared to the rape of peasant girls in the past.

After that we learn she was no longer a maiden.

We are told that she had realised the serpent hisses where the sweet birds sing.

To me it seems as though what happened to her was not consensual at all.

In the next chapter when she meets him again he tells her thought no means yes.

He admitted he had done her wrong.

The word seduction was mentioned as a modern idiom during the radio discussion.

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SealSong · 07/05/2016 01:03

When I read the book it stood out clearly as rape to me.

I must read some more Hardy, it's been a while.