Danielle Muscato

Yes, but ... surgery to get rid of perfectly healthy organs is something that frequently happens to trans people, and is a well known consequence of identifying as the other sex

Buffy's analogy still works though. It must be an awful faff coping with a prosthetic penis , hormones etc but it's presumably doable and liveable with. The person is not making themselves disabled in the way people who develop an obsession about say amputating a limb and carry it through are.

Whereas in the case of accepting someone with anorexia's self identification as a fat person and their consequent intention to lose weight, everyone can see that the risk is that they become malnourished and die.

Yes, but ... surgery to get rid of perfectly healthy organs is something that frequently happens to trans people, and is a well known consequence of identifying as the other sex.

People are not concerned about that. Perhaps people really have to die for it to matter?

After all, if you are a bit chubby, people will be more than happy to confirm your mistaken belief that you are overweight and need to lose weight, and your health may well suffer as result of the diet, but feminists are more or less the only people who worry about body image issues.

So, perhaps the thinking is: "As long as no one dies, everything is alright"?

Sucides get used as "proof" why "misgendering" males who believe they are women is "literally killing" them.

Welcome to Alice in Wonderland folks and the Humpty Dumpty school of word meanings.

The difficulty with feels like = is comes when you try to extended it to other ideas and feelings. If I tell you I feel fat, then saying you should respect that feeling and support my efforts to lose weight (even if I am, according to all physical measures dangerously underweight) would seem to be irresponsible nonsense. Only in the realm of transgender do feelings trump fact.

Or perhaps not? Who knows? It's a mystery.

I was just coming on to say this too. The difference between Danielle and JAPAB is that one feels like a woman and the other no doubt feels like a man.

Danielle is a woman because she says so. No objective criteria is needed these days and there is no difference between feels like and is. HTH.

LassWiTheDelicateAir, sorry, which difficult health condition does the actress who played Snoop have?

Sorry, I confused that link with the bearded women. From one photograph, and I know nothing about the actor, she looks androgynous but female.

So you think Danielle is a woman. In that case there is no reason why you should not explain what you think the difference between men and women is. I am a woman and you have said you are a man. If Danielle is a woman what is there about Danielle which makes Danielle a woman and you a man ?

I don't think Sam Escobar makes a good comparison to Danielle Muscato as she doesn't claim to be a man. If a woman did do a 'Danielle', she wouldn't get taken seriously. Certainly not on the level Dave is.

I honestly don't know why people engage with JAQAB

RufusTheReindeer every time I do, I know I shouldn't. There's no way in hell he thinks that Danielle is a woman. He knows what a woman is. If he didn't know what a woman was he wouldn't have picked a forum predominantly frequented by women to spend his time on. He comes here because he is a sexist man and he knows exactly what a woman is. I wonder what he's like in real life. Mummy issues maybe.

JAPAB needs to go to SpecSavers.

LassWiTheDelicateAir, sorry, which difficult health condition does the actress who played Snoop have?

Would you really like to stake your life that you could always identify the chromosome of an individual purely from their face (whether they have a beard or not) of everyone on the planet (if we exclude intersexed people)?

I certainly wouldn't, and not just because of that one instance of mis-sexing someone I was watching on The Wire. Sometimes, even if relatively rare, some women just look like males. And some of them will even have an XX-chromosome. And vice versa for men.

Simple question - do you think Danielle is a woman? Yes or no?

Yes, although I've already said so.

Did you see my Snoop example. Sometimes they do, even without the beards

Yes. They are women they look like women. They are women who have to cope with a difficult health condition which I personally would hate to have. It's pretty insulting to them and the intelligence of the posters on here to suggest we can't tell the difference between them and Danielle.

Simple question - do you think Danielle is a woman? Yes or no?

I think it would be best if we all just no platformed JAPAB.

So we need to adjust our thinking, set our minds to solve the 'psychological problems' involved in viewing Danielle Muscato as a woman. But trans supporters can't/won't tell us what a woman is.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm a woman because of my biology. If I have to accept Danielle Muscato as a woman, then I'm not one. I don't have anything in common with him that I don't have in common with humans everywhere.

So we're back to that discussion on a previous thread: if 'woman' No longer means what it used to, how should we refer to biological females, and how can we fight discrimination against them?

I honestly don't know why people engage with JAQAB

LassWiTheDelicateAir If I answer that question put to me, as I have done on several previous threads after being directly asked to, then it will be met with complaints about the arrogance of a man "telling" women what women are (although seemingly OK for them to have views on what a man is, even ones that contradict my (a man) own).

You know perfectly well what the OP meant. A hirsute , even beaded woman is not going to be mistaken for a man.

Did you see my Snoop example. Sometimes they do, even without the beards.

Japab you should really go into politics. Such disingenuous responses , such dodging and diving to avoid answering the question.

You know perfectly well what the OP meant. A hirsute , even beaded woman is not going to be mistaken for a man.

japab there, doing the classic 'I'm not answering your questions because I'm a man and I don't want to so don't ask me'.

Why bother commenting then? You're going to get questioned on your blatant agenda of being a massive MRA.

MrsBruceBogtrotter, yes there are other differences between the subset of women with an XX-chromosome and the subset with an XY-chromosome (or depending on your perspective, women and men claiming to be women), but they weren't in focus. The OP did not ask "How is someone with a penis a woman? Just how?" or "How is someone with an XY-chromosome a woman? Just how?" They essentially asked "How is someone who looks like this a woman? Just how?" Hence the examples of biological females with beards, and/or who who can be mistaken for male because of they way they look and etc etc.

And yes, even if one adjusts their expectations of how a man or woman must look this won't help with the other differences if those remain sticking points, but no-one suggested it would.

To others, I am not going to get into the definition thing again here. Just wanted to talk about the physical appearance thing.

Yes Japab do you think Danielle a woman?

If you think Danielle is a woman what is the difference between men and women?

Anyway, they don't actually want to be treated as women, do they? They don't want to be dismissed, belittled and harassed. They want to be treated in a way that matches their feeling as a woman.

I think it is more that they do not want to be treated as women at all - but they don't want to be treated as men, i.e. members of the oppressor class and enablers of patriarchy.
But they also don't want to do anything to earn the trust of women, to prove that they are allies in the feminist fight.

So they just identify out of being male, and just like that, they're innocent victims ... with lots and lots of male privilege, and the shiny innocence without the nasty realities of the victim-part.

JAPAB you think Muscato is a woman. Could you give us the definition of woman you're working with there?