Danielle Muscato

As a gender-skeptical feminist, I don't know what I feel or think about transwomen like Danielle. I suppose they have as much right as anyone with the biology of a man to call themselves a woman.

Danielle helps in highlighting the oddness of the concept of a biological man feeling like a woman when they have not experienced living their life being treated as a woman or experienced the biology of that sex. It just isn't possible because there is no such thing as feeling like a woman.

Wearing make-up, heels, walking and speaking in a 'feminine' way, carrying a handbag does not make anyone 'a woman' in the same way as having a beard doesn't either.

I may have misunderstood your POV as haven't had time to check all your posts but that is what the post I quoted sounded like.

Not in those words but you did say you're fine with it. I didn't see you acknowledge that it is a problem because it will be a problem for other people.

That is the attitude commonly referred to as "I'm alright Jack".

I didn't say "I'm all right Jack" but don't let that stop you putting words in my mouth.

"I don't feel the existence of trans women diminishes my identity or takes anything away from me."

Their existence doesn't change anything for you, I agree.

The proposed changes in law which mean, in effect, that there will be no such thing as female-only spaces/support groups/hospital rooms etc will change a lot for you and for other women. Maybe you won't notice it until you or someone you know well are gravely affected by these changes, but they will.

Even if you're alright Jack, these changes whereby "a woman is anyone who says they are" will negatively affect millions of women whose statistics will be skewed, who will have to share a prison cell with a male who likes to use his penis recreationally, who will have to get her smear test from a man in makeup because it will be bigotry and against the law to say "No, I don't want a male sticking his hands up my fanjo".

Even if you're alright Jack, you must care about other women at least a bare minimum in order to call yourself a feminist.

The day I identify as a football supporter is the day I do, erm, something unlikely.... Ah well. Anyway. Well done to Leicester FC!

I don't know about anyone else but today, I identify as a Leicester FC supporter, I've never been to a game, have only visited Leicester itself a few times over 15 years ago but I feel like a supporter today. Anyone else?

Yes! I was reading all about them on the train down this morning. And I've never been to Leicester.

Miranda calls herself a refugee from toxic masculinity. She knows she's not a woman but she doesn't want to be a man either. I think that's a reasonable path to take

I see. That is much like what Jen Bob says too.

I don't feel the existence of trans women diminishes my identity or takes anything away from me. I am a woman. I will always be a woman. I don't have to do anything to be a woman. No one looking at me (even if I wore masculine clothes, and stopped shaving my legs and plucking the hairs on my chin) is ever going to mistake me for a man.

I'm in London tonight and have just got back from a concert. A trans woman of about my age got in the lift with me at my hotel. We had a brief conversation of the inconsequential nature one has in hotel lifts. She was perfectly pleasant but obviously trans. I felt sorry for her to be honest.

I think you are right Muttaburrasaurus.

It is like with teenagers - when they say they are X thing, they really, really think they are that thing. And not being socially validated as X identity is very hard for them. So adults tend to indulge teenagers and their need for an identity, probably because we see it as a developmental phase where you treat society as if it is your mum and dad.

But I don't think we expect adults to have an identity; we expect them to have a sense of self, and if they are attempting to maintain an identity, that's often a sign of an underlying problem.

I don't know about anyone else but today, I identify as a Leicester FC supporter, I've never been to a game, have only visited Leicester itself a few times over 15 years ago but I feel like a supporter today. Anyone else?

I think most of us dont really think about identifying as a woman (obviously because we just are women) but also because we have a healthily developed sense of self that does not rely so much on any one 'identity' but allows us to be many things and many roles flexibly whilst able to keep a stable sense of who we are throughout that. The absense of that stable sense of self is a feature of some personality disorders so to me that seems why some trans people cling to their identity as a woman.
Obviously that only accounts for some trans people. I think there are many reasons why people might be trans.

I think this picture is great. To be a woman, you must both have a woman's biology and be recognised by society as a woman and treated accordingly - if women had men's biology but otherwise had total equality, it would be a very different experience.

TW have neither - they cannot possibly know what it is to be female.

I think for some trans people the 'identity' bit is just about a strong sense of not belonging. I still think there is a huge crossover for some trans people with some types of personality disorder where people often feel this way and often throw themselves into all kinds of different groups or 'identities' to try to appease that feeling. They talk about a strong sense of uncomfortableness and revulsion about their bodies and sense of self. Couple that with a poor ability to see things without idealising or demonizing and I could easily see that might lead to transgenderism. The nature of the actual 'identity' is not the important thing and doesn't have to be real or objective - people will identify with being team A or team B and make up all sorts of reasons why they are team B and why that is the 'best' team.

Miranda calls herself a refugee from toxic masculinity. She knows she's not a woman but she doesn't want to be a man either. I think that's a reasonable path to take.

However, if those experiences do not make me a woman and the only thing which does make me a woman is the "feeling" which I do not have...then what am I? Have I lost my identity as a woman? Is that not a detriment to me, caused by redefining what a woman is?

This is so true. It's one thing that I really struggle with in the whole trans narrative. It's weird, because I've never cared about being a woman, I've never 'identified as a woman', it's just who I am. And unlike many others, I don't care too much about the word 'woman'. I'd be happy to be known by another word that meant 'biological female'. But I absolutely hate the idea that I can be classified in the same group as Danielle Muscato. The one and only thing that has made me a woman is my biology. So the word cannot and does not mean 's group that includes Danielle and MrsKC'.

Sorry, random ramblings... Just trying to process my thoughts.

And Lass.

Very interesting, PerspicaciaTick and Buffy.

However, I don't have "the feeling of being a woman". My identity as a woman is connected almost exclusively to physical experiences: the way I look; my memories of puberty; childbearing; knowing that menopause is just around the corner and so on. However, if those experiences do not make me a woman and the only thing which does make me a woman is the "feeling" which I do not have...then what am I? Have I lost my identity as a woman? Is that not a detriment to me, caused by redefining what a woman is?

Well I suppose you would have to ask a trans woman what they felt. Have Miranda Yardley or Aofie Hart explained why they felt the need to transition ? I appreciate both of them are happy to be called trans women- but even so- what motivated them?

I said on another thread I can make some sense of what a genuine trans person might be feeling about themselves by comparing it to what a deeply religious person feels. It's of over arching importance and real and tangible for the religious person but I have absolutely no sense of what having a god in your life means.

I'm not sure I agree that it is those physical experiences which make one a woman- I mean I am one because of biology.

I have no words.

May be if it felt that there was a movement which was genuinely forging a bright new, shiny, modern approach to gender, then I would find it easier accept. But at the moment it feels like the existing patterns are being twisted to fit a future they are unsuited for. So everything feels lumpy, jarring and misshapen and sharp bits keep snagging on tender areas. Maybe these are the birth pangs that all major shifts in societal attitudes go through.

And also the fact that I thought feminism was part of forging a future without gender constructs, but gender constructs seem to be a very big part of the new future.

Right - must stop moaning about it all.

No - that is all really interesting...I'm going to have to do more reading (and thinking)...thank you.

Yes - I think that you've got to the heart of it Buffy.

There seems to be an assumption that biological females, whatever their individual differences, all share "the feeling of being a woman". And that to allow males who also have "the feeling of being a woman" to be identified as women is not taking anything away from or damaging biological women, it is merely making the category "woman" more inclusive and welcoming to the benefit of the male and without detriment to the female.
However, I don't have "the feeling of being a woman". My identity as a woman is connected almost exclusively to physical experiences: the way I look; my memories of puberty; childbearing; knowing that menopause is just around the corner and so on. However, if those experiences do not make me a woman and the only thing which does make me a woman is the "feeling" which I do not have...then what am I? Have I lost my identity as a woman? Is that not a detriment to me, caused by redefining what a woman is?

I'm not sure I'm explaining this very well at all. It just feels that the reason these discussions resonate with me at the moment, is because it seems I am having something taken away from me, that I am being reduced in way that is not being recognised outside of MN. And it makes me feel I should be fighting back, not squishing up to make room.

I feel like some sort of Venn diagram would be useful .