Danielle Muscato

Thanks Buffy
Lass that's annoying! I'd be interested if you can be bothered to type it out again.

I had a long reply typed out to Buffy and Penguin but Virgin East Coast WiFi has buggered it up and it was probably off topic of this thread. Stuff about self worth, self belief, promotion thereof.

So I'm sure there are lots of individual women who have never felt inferior in our society but women who fit the role of womanhood that is idealised in the media are made to feel inferior. It's like double think.

I get what Buffy is saying. I grew up with "motherhood" being on a pedestal and I think it still is but the reality of being a SAHM is being sneered at. Women's bodies are glamourised and fetishised in the media but at the same time people sneer at women for being vain and shallow and taking too long in the bathroom.

No, I didn't Lass. Do read those posts again. Or see below:

JAPAB said: "When you are in the "right" sexed body and/or being described with the "right" gender pronouns and/or other people are treating you as the "right" one of the two, then everything feels "normal" and as it should be. This is perhaps what it means to feel like a man/woman."

We all know that he believes 'woman' is someone who 'feels like a woman'. And his definition for 'feeling like a woman' (above) is feeling that everything is normal and as it should be when treated by other people as generally considered appropriate for your gender.

I don't feel that everything is 'as it should be' when other people treat me as of my gender, with all the underlying expectations and prejudices that entails. And that means, according to JAPAB, that I don't feel like a woman.

Since we all know that in JAPAB's world 'feeling like a woman' = 'being a woman', that means I am not a woman.

In his mind.

What feminism has tried to do, IMHO, is sever the old link between biology and social role (which I think has been fairly successful in places like the UK), and between social role and inferiority (which I think has been less successful)

Can you clarify what you mean by social role and inferiority? I would say my lifetime experience in the UK is that if there were potential issues I might have faced from being female these were overwhelmed by the advantages of social class , education and race.

Sorry a bit off topic.

I don't particularly want to agree with JAPAB but yes, I can see some logic in the situation that hearing the pronouns she or he as appropriate and not giving them a second thought might be a starting point.

I am not trans , neither is Cote and as far as I am aware neither is JAPAB, so none of us will ever have the sensation of finding she or he jarring.

Cote , again as much as I don't agree with JAPAB you have stated things he did not say.

"wasn't asking about what the biological definitions are. Yes we do all know what those are."

There Is No Definition Of The Words "Man" And "Woman" Other Than Biological.

There is no definition of the words "man" and "woman" other than biological.

I can also write it in capital letters if it will help you get it. We have been through this many times and you just don't get it.

Would underlining help?

You suggested it in the post I quoted, JAPAB. Where you say being a woman means feeling that's it's all fine and normal when one is treated according to the gender expectations and prejudices accorded to those with vaginas.

That is not only wrong and frankly ludicrous, but is also very offensive. Because, would you believe, we are not actually OK with any of that.

I disagree: I think it massively matters. If we say the reason it matters is because people can be fortuitously placed in the right body or unfortunately dumped in the wrong one, we're enabling all kinds of nonsense.

Of course it would feel wrong to be in a different body, just like if I woke up from my life as a travelling salesman as a cockroach - in a fictional situation that's never actually happened and couldn't actually happen. That wouldn't feel wrong because some people are 'really cockroaches' or vice versa, but because it would be a surreal and impossible situation.

I feel it is right and proper and correctly capturing of me to be referred to as a woman because that is what I am. As is anyone born with a female body, whatever their feelings about that are.

We all know what the words 'man' and 'woman' mean, and they have nothing to do with feeling right about oneself when treated with gender prejudices.

That is really not what I said. Plus I was responding to a particular query as I quoted. And it wasn't asking about what the biological definitions are. Yes we do all know what those are.

In fact, your suggestion that a female is a woman only if she feels good about being told to bring coffee in a business meeting or having doors held for her is downright offensive.

Where did I suggest that?

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace, If I was transplanted now in a 'Freaky Friday thought experiment', of course that would feel wrong, because I've been a woman for 38 years! Not because my lady mind would suddenly 'get' what it means to be trans.

The purpose it would not be to get what it means to be trans, but to contrast how you would feel in the two situations. So you would agree that it would feel wrong.

Being called 'she' and 'a woman' doesn't 'feel right and proper' because by a happy accident my mind was correctly aligned with my body at birth - it is because it correctly describes an adult of this sex.

Ultimately it doesn't matter why you feel what you feel here. Doesn't matter why you feel happy in a discussion of what feeling happy means in itself. So you feel it right and proper and correctly capturing of you to be referred to in these ways. OK well glad to hear it.

"When you are in the "right" sexed body and/or being described with the "right" gender pronouns and/or other people are treating you as the "right" one of the two, then everything feels "normal" and as it should be. This is perhaps what it means to feel like a man/woman."

No it isn't. That is just mental masturbation.

We all know what the words 'man' and 'woman' mean, and they have nothing to do with feeling right about oneself when treated with gender prejudices.

In fact, your suggestion that a female is a woman only if she feels good about being told to bring coffee in a business meeting or having doors held for her is downright offensive.

If I was transplanted now in a 'Freaky Friday thought experiment', of course that would feel wrong, because I've been a woman for 38 years! Not because my lady mind would suddenly 'get' what it means to be trans.

Being called 'she' and 'a woman' doesn't 'feel right and proper' because by a happy accident my mind was correctly aligned with my body at birth - it is because it correctly describes an adult of this sex.

But if it's not defined by outward characteristics (I'm with you on that) and it's not defined on biology, then what are we left with? Just this vague idea if 'feeling like a woman' which is a circular definition and doesn't include many, many people previously viewed as 'women'.

I've seen definitions/discussions of terms like cissexual and cisgender which talk about people whose experience of life is of their mental and physical sex/identity being aligned, and feeling as if certain gender pronouns typically associated with their biological sex correctly capture them, and so on.

So maybe that is the answer you are looking for. When you are in the "right" sexed body and/or being described with the "right" gender pronouns and/or other people are treating you as the "right" one of the two, then everything feels "normal" and as it should be. This is perhaps what it means to feel like a man/woman. Certain things feel "normal" and "right" to you.

Not the sort of thing most of us would notice in and of itself. You would either have to be trans or do some kind of Freaky Friday thought experiment where you get body swapped, to then have your feeling of being a man/woman made starker, since that feeling of normalcy and rightness will not be there if you are in the body of the "wrong" sex and/or are being described with the "wrong" pronouns and/or having everyone else acts as if you are the "wrong" one of the two and etc etc.

What I am suggesting in a nutshell is, feeling like a man = feeling as if a certain body and/or being referred to as he and/or being considered as a man, feels right and proper, and as if being in a a certain other body and/or being referred to as she and/or being considered as a woman, feels not right and not proper. With suitable adjustments made for feeling like a woman.

Well, it is not circular at least.

I think there's a whole lot of deep nearly unconscious misogyny and homophobia going on with this sort of transwoman. Not all transwomen - I have worked with a couple both pre- & post-op, and they were just ordinary people trying to get on with life, and dealing with this extraordinary dysphoria.

But this new 'gender fluid' - why can't men just wear dresses & make up if they want to? If they prefer sex with men why can't they jkust have sex with men?

Because I suppose masculinity is still such a repressive coercive socialisation that to be a man wearing the outward trappings of a woman is to lose all shreds of masculinity; ditto, homophobia - if you're in this hypermasculine mindset, then an attraction to men must mean you're "really" a woman. Because the thought of being a gay man is too horrific.

I think back to the first women to wear trousers (in Western Europe) in the 19thC. They were thought of as sexually deviant, psychologically abnormal. But to take on male clothes is to take on symbols/significations of masculine power, whereas to wear a dress is to "throw like a girl."

Yeuch - I'm 57 years old, and I don't think I'll ever get used to the dangerous knowledge of misogyny. As Prof. Greer said: Women can't afford to realise how much men hate them.

But surely it is defined by biology, and to a lesser extent your physical and specific 'social gender's' life experiences because of that biological definition.

Mind you I don't actually go round everyday thinking deeply about being a woman. I am many things, that are more important to me personally, than my female identity.

Actually I would go as far as saying I probably welcome the idea that Danielle challenges the concept of woman being defined as outwardly 'feminine' characteristics

But if it's not defined by outward characteristics (I'm with you on that) and it's not defined on biology, then what are we left with? Just this vague idea if 'feeling like a woman' which is a circular definition and doesn't include many, many people previously viewed as 'women'.

Rolling indeed they are,.

That is the whole problem with defining what is acceptable gender appearance. It is actually feck all to with anyone how you wear your hair, deal with body hair, clothes you wear; being a woman is solely about biological sex and your life's experiences.

Danielle is no more or less a transwomen than one who chooses to shave or wear make-up. It's all bollocks they are just biological males who are delusional about the idea that there is an internal special snowflake feeling that 'makes you feel like a woman'.

I just don't want to share a public toilet, a changing room, or a woman's shelter, a prison with someone who has a working penis. I don't care whether they have a beard or unshaven legs.

Actually I would go as far as saying I probably welcome the idea that Danielle challenges the concept of woman being defined as outwardly 'feminine' characteristics

But think of the public vitriol and hatred - misogyny - spewed out at Mary Beard, or Andrea Dworkin or Germaine Greer or - well any woman who doesn't present publicly as outwardly overtly "feminine."

When women challenge being 'outwardly feminine' they are hated.

the "feeling" which I do not have...then what am I? Have I lost my identity as a woman? Is that not a detriment to me, caused by redefining what a woman isthe "feeling" which I do not have...then what am I? Have I lost my identity as a woman? Is that not a detriment to me, caused by redefining what a woman is

I was responding to this point. The existence of trans women does not as far as I am concerned mean I lose my identity as a woman. There may be implications for how women and trans women will share spaces but that is not the point I was responding to.

Actually I would go as far as saying I probably welcome the idea that Danielle challenges the concept of woman being defined as outwardly 'feminine' characteristics.

However we don't really need a man to do that for us.