Men as protectors

I see you're also getting your grimarse handed to you on another thread

I'm sure you relish your role as the soi-disant voice of reason in feminism. Fight the good fight, brother.

How is that twisting your words?

Your words:

Serious question - would you rather just have a feminist talking shop? Most of us don't get to meet feminists in real life, so people like me find it an interesting place to discuss aspects of it.

Do you not SEE how dismissive you are? Feminist talking shop! Like we can't possibly be achieving anything chattering away amongst ourselves. And you're, what, helpfully broadening the debate for us? There are men who post here who I have absolutely no problem with, because when they say "men have no right to a role in feminism", they understand it, they mean it, and they post in ways that demonstrates that. Perhaps you should ask yourself why you don't come across that way.

It might be interesting for you to study feminists in captivity, Grimarse...

Honestly, how does twisting words in this manner help anyone?

Men's views on feminism is a side-show. We cannot be feminists, we cannot partake in it, nor should we. I have said that many times. I do think though that if no men posted on Fwr, you'd still be left with over 90% of the arguments. I dunno, maybe that would still be preferable.

It might be interesting for you to study feminists in captivity, Grimarse, but I don't think whataboutery and challenging the basic tenets of feminism bring much to the discourse (not just from you, but from a number of other current posters). I don't honestly really much care what men think of my feminism. I don't need their approval or participation and I don't think I need to get anywhere near apologising for that either.

When I would rather be having a conversation about some aspect of feminist thought, it is wearying to have to wade through accusations of over-thinking, victimhood, wrongness etc etc to get to the meat of the matter at hand. I've opened and closed a dozen threads this week and thought "Oh, I can't be arsed" and closed them down without commenting, because they've already been derailed by what Buffy rightly identifies as ideas that don't belong in any strand of feminism she or I are familiar with.

it's obvious they don't hold feminist views

When you say that, Buffy, what do you mean? Feminism is first and foremost a broad church, and it means different things to different people. Some self-identified feminists love this place, and some don't. And you don't have to be a feminist to hold/agree with some feminist views. So, for example, someone might agree with equal pay, equal parental leave and a woman's right to abortion. They might disagree with other aspects.

This thread is a good example of where you are more likely to get a cross-section of views, as it is specifically about non-feminists, i.e. men. Serious question - would you rather just have a feminist talking shop? Most of us don't get to meet feminists in real life, so people like me find it an interesting place to discuss aspects of it.

The question in the OP is 'Men as protectors - Is it ever really true, except in their own minds?'

What is the OP actually asking? If she is asking whether some women see their partner as the one to go and check when there is a noise downstairs at 3 am - then obviously yes, some women do see men in this role. So sometimes, it is true in women's heads as well.

If she is asking whether women are better off without a male partner in their life (and I think she is ), then that is probably true too. All the stats I hear on here are that women are assaulted far more frequently by their partner than by a stranger. Ergo, women are better off alone.

I think there is a part of male biology that makes us more prevalent to violence than women. And that, unfortunately, is with us for the forseeable future. The logical conclusion is some forms of separatism, until we can sort this disposition out. It doesn't necessarily have to be enforced - women can and should make the decision to live happily without a male partner.

(Would be interesting to know though if you thought it would apply as a general statement).

No, I don't think it applies as a general statement.
My feeling is it's quite widespread, but not universal. Would be interesting to find out given the theme of the thread.

I've often worked late at night and would frequently be asked if my partner would be meeting me at the station/bus stop. I always say of course not, but they'll ask me am I not afraid to walk home alone? It is a prevalent idea that a woman needs protecting. When I was younger I remember friends' parents who thought we were safer when there would be boys as part of the group. When there were no boys there was always a 'look after each other' talk. I remember this because it shocked me at the time. I grew up with a single mum and no brothers so the idea of men as protectors was new to me.

However, being out with a man does deter certain men from offering unwanted attention. I've been followed and harassed quite a lot when travelling at night but never when I've been with a man. They assume I'm his property, I guess, as when they've not realised I was with a man and started harassing me, they always apologise to him when he arrives.

I don't think it's just feminists saying to girls and women to be careful when out at night. Feminists or not there was a 'text me when you're home' rule that I don't think the boys ever thought about. I've never treated men any differently and walked friends home if I thought they were a bit too drunk etc. Unfortunately a colleague I helped out in this way attacked me once, but rightly or wrongly I don't think it has changed the way I behave.

OK, MrNosey. I didn't read that as only relating to your friends - thought it was a general statement.

(Would be interesting to know though if you thought it would apply as a general statement).

I think the world is changing. I know for a fact that my wife expects me to go downstairs and see what a noise might be. My mum would have sent my dad when he was alive. But I know my daughter would be first in line in her own home. So actually, it depends.

Err no, actually.

Agreed

Err no, actually.

Err, yes actually.
I was referring to the people I know.

In my house it's both of us who go and look.

However, on a practical note, DP is 6' tall and I'm a dumpy 5', so if intimidation was the point, then DP would be the sensible choice because he's bigger, not because he's a man.

My DP has been away for weeks at a time too, and just like you, I've been asked if I was afraid, if I wanted to go and stay with them etc.

Most noises at night fall in the "probably nothing, but better to know for sure" category, where you switch the light on to convince yourself that it is really nothing, and then go back to sleep.

If I was sure that there's a burglar, I would not send my husband to investigate (because if I had a husband, he'd be a rare jewel and I'd want to keep him), but call the police.

But when there's a noise in the house at night, it's always the DH who is sent down to investigate.Even amongst staunch, independent women.

Err no, actually.

*If the concept of my husband protecting me is so out of date, what are they asking me? It's not "Aren't you lonely?" - that comes as separate question. They think I must be more afraid when alone than when he's there. The nub of it is that they think there is something that I have when he is there, that I don't have when he isn't, and it isn't just companionship, so it must be protection.

Weird, isn't it?*

Yep, weird. Few of the women I know would say their DH protects them in this sense, and few of the men would say they protect their DH.
But when there's a noise in the house at night, it's always the DH who is sent down to investigate.
Even amongst staunch, independent women.
Unless they're single.

Alarm systems, yes, but also windows that are harder to break open, that kind of stuff. They are advertised with the claim that burglars will give up after half an hour or so, because they don't want to be seen by the neighbours.

I don't think the risk of a burglar breaking in during the day while you are at home, is that high. As I said, those who are just after money have no interest in you being at home.

There are of course men who break into women's homes to rape, but they are a tiny minority of rapists, the risk that the intimate partner is a rapist is much higher.

I guess what I would like to know is whether a man in the house actually has a protective effect at all.

Like, of the women who are raped or murdered by a man who is not their husband or intimate partner, how many of them are single? (One would of course have to exclude those instances where single women are murdered as direct result of looking for a partner, like murdered by new male acquaintances. )

If a man in the house discourages rapists from breaking in, you would expect that of the women who are murdered by a stranger or a man they just know superficially, most of them are single.

I am struggling to think of a friend or acquaintance who hasn't at some point asked me a variation of "When Mr Freshwater is away, aren't you afraid?". I get it at least once a fortnight.

Yup, same with the military or any other job where the man in the family is away for chunks of time.

But men aren't seen by society as protectors, so it's all fine.