Men as protectors

We still have a male-led justice system persecuting women who report rape. Women being told my male judges that they were raped because they were 'tempting' or because a man 'couldn't help himself.' Where are all the men raging against these injustices? Where are all the men getting out there and saying 'this is not acceptable'?

that should obviously say beg, plead...

Up until 1991, it was entirely and totally legal for a man to rape a woman, as long as that woman was his wife. Men were completely happy with that law and women had to actually campaign - bed, plead and argue - to get it changed. Men stood by a law that made violence against women legal. That's what we've been up against.

Every single change that has been brought about to protect women from male violence has been brought about, sometimes after huge struggle, by women, while men stand around and do nothing.

I'm not talking about seeing violence on the street and stopping it cadno. I'm talking about changing the law to ensure violence is properly punished, campaigning against cuts that mean women are trapped in violent relationships, setting up refuges so that women have a safe space to escape to. All things that women have done with little or no help (or in some cases, active obstruction) from men. Why can't men as a group stand up and say 'we recognise that our fellow men are violent, and we will not allow it to be ignored any longer'?

TheSparrowhawk Men often stand up to other violent men - certainly in my experience. I've done it often.

The men as protectors thing. There's a lot of symbolism around it still at key events:

• A traditional marriage ceremony has a bride with her father taking her arm down the aisle. The groom needs no such protection - he can manage the short walk by himself. Men making speeches at wedding receptions while the women sit there silently.

• The male hand in the small of the female back at funerals. Steering the women out of the church. Men managing to get out by themselves.

And yes, not every bride, not everyone has a hand in the back...

In Islam, aren't men described as protectors and maintainers of women?

Cadno - women have stood up against violent men, at great cost to themselves. Men haven't done the same thing though, so that's why I asked if it was possible.

So what would you say to separatist feminists?

Or another methodology is for people who are not violent to stand up against the other people who are violent. Might that be possible ?

My husband is the family protector - that's how I view him. But that's just cause he's a bloke (although he does always have my back and I have him)

I view him more strongly as the hunter gatherer - he goes out and earns the money to feed / clothe / house the family. I stay at home as the best defender - keep the house running etc and defending it from all the junk mail haha!

One methodology would for men who aren't themselves violent to stand with women against men who are violent. Do you think that's possible Grimarse?

"There are some feminists - as in real women -..,."

Damn it! That's where we've gone wrong! Being imaginary.

"whatever women might be missing in the world, men's opinions ain't it."

YY.

So bloody true!

Well I cannot pretend that male violence does not exist. I cannot wish it away. It happens in every country, every society, every class and every level of income. It happens between siblings - as in those who share genes and environment still have different temperaments. And women cannot tell who is a good guy and who is an abuser.

Is it innate, socialised or a combination? It seems to be the great hope of feminism that it can be eradicated by social engineering. I see no evidence. Assault and abuse still occurs in even the most equal of societies. So if there is a methodology, I am all ears. Stopping men being violent and exploitative - it's a very easy thing to say.

There are some feminists - as in real women - who think this to be a valid solution. Are they taking the easy way out too? Would you be as dismissive to them?

Buffy, I agree completely with what you say. Thank you for saying it.

I am a bit put off by the constant nitpicking and whataboutery on here. And from a few non-feminist members who feel on some level that they need to either police what others say or discourage others from talking at all on here.

It is great to be able to talk about stuff that affects us as women. Share experiences even if some of us struggle to identify and articulate the reasons why we feel as we do. Liberating even.

I've only been posting for a few months on here. But I've noticed that the biggest male presence on mumsnet is on the FWR board. By far. Why is that do we think? Does it feed into this "Man As Protector" thing?

Yeah, but her opening line is "Is it ever really true, except in their own minds", which I don't think is asking for men's opinions at all - the "really true" is the bit that isn't in "their own minds", isn't it?

Here's the big bit that you're missing: whatever women might be missing in the world, men's opinions ain't it.

I see you're also getting your grimarse handed to you on another thread

Brilliant.

So you have a thread here about men, about their attitudes and perceptions and an assumed role in society. And men, who are brought up differently, with different expectations, might see things in a different way. If the OP had said 'no male participants please' then I would not have taken part. But she didn't. Is that what she wanted? It seems odd in a thread discussing how men think.