Men as protectors

EBearhug
"You know they're called firefighters these days, because it's a job women do too?"

Could a female firefighter carry an unconscious adult, or even adolescent, human being down several flights of stairs of a burning building? Realistically, no. Certainly not as quickly as a male firefighter could.

The thread title is "men as protectors" in society and the thread is nine pages of rubbishing the notion. So you can't conveniently move the goalposts when someone comes up with an example of a situation where men do act as protectors, even if it is their job.

WGTOW ? mmm...rings a bell someplace.

This was an interesting thread a while back about whether people would seek out another co-habiting relationship again. The majority was no.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2580330-to-think-frankly-id-rather-be-in-my-own-that-be-with-or-live-with-a-man-ever-again?

The 'protector' nonsense is about ownership and dependence. Women were made helpless by patriarchal society - they were denied education, work, property and the opportunity to have children on their own - so that men could ensure that they would have use of them for free. In order to preserve their own self image as good people men couched this use as 'protection' - as in, you can't do anything on your own so you need a man in order to have a functioning adult life. It was totally artificial - in a society where women are allowed access to all the same things as men they are entirely able to function without 'protectors.' Once women gain more freedom what men find is that suddenly they don't have their own personal slave any more and that doesn't suit them one bit. Hence the absolute bollocks about 'the breakdown in marriage' and how awful it is for children. Children, my fat arse. It's awful for men who don't want to have to wash their own socks.

IrishDad, the OP about relationships, not about situations where men (and also women) happen to be paid to protect other people from danger.

No Irish.

But I'll let my friend know she isn't strong enough to do the job.

Shall I also let all the female squaddies I know that actually, when they do their CFT they're not strong enough to do that either?

It's also not the topic at hand. Or even close to it. Unless you think that all women should marry firefighters?

You know they're called firefighters these days, because it's a job women do too?

Back to the topic at hand, I'll give you an example of where men are protectors of women in circumstances where it's not against a threat of violence from other men: firemen.

With the best will in the world, very, very few women, if any, would be physically strong enough to carry a person (other than a small to medium child, perhaps) down 10 flights of stairs of a burning apartment block.

Is that not a genuine example of men as protectors?

That user has been banned, Polidori. I wish they could remove it completely.

The thing is, I don't think anyone's saying that individual men are morally oblighed to set up DV support groups, or become the secretary of a campaign against rape culture or anything like that (indeed I think some feminists would argue that it's not men's place to do so).

I think the way we as men (with all our flaws and limitations) can make a the biggest difference on an individual level is by (b) not being a twat ourselves but also challenging twattishness and sexist assumptions when we come across them. That can encompass calling out misogynistic behaviour when we see it: the shitty sexist comments of our work colleagues, someone giving a woman a mouthful in the street.

I think this can also encompass making life decisions such as reducing our working hours and taking a greater share of what would be traditionally considered 'wifework' on our shoulders.

None of this is groundbreaking but I think if those of us who give a shit make these kinds of adjustments - which really isn't a huge ask - that alone can make a big difference.

I'm not trying to mansplain or tell women how to do feminism or anything like that, these are just my humble thoughts on the subject, and the approach I'm trying to follow wrt to not being a twat.

But Grimarse can you see how this position differs from 'well, I've never raped anyone, so i'm in the clear'?

What is the typical FWR poster?

I am not the typical FWR poster (although I have posted here on and off for several years).

However, when Grimarse pulled his "well actually I'm not a feminist schtick", my immediate response was to click on the x button, because I cannot be bothered with oh-so clever men and their oh so clever arguments.

That is the sort of impact you have Grimarse.

No FWR is not a safe space and yes people disagree.

However, to use a frequent comparison, there's a difference between going into the Doghouse section on MN and disagreeing about dog training, and going on every thread to say that owning dogs is pointless.

Grimarse, when woman after woman tells you that the value you think you're contributing is not what you think it is (it has happened to you repeatedly today dude, take a fucking hint!), the more you don't listen, the more you brush it off, the more you continue to post your nonsense, all you are achieving is REINFORCING what feminists are saying. Much as you probably would like to think otherwise, you're not providing some sort of counterpoint to the consensus here - you're providing living examples of what we're talking about. Is this massive own goal what you want?

I hope you get bored of it soon, I really do. Or it sinks in that you can go on as much as you want but here is one place you can't shut women up.

Are you saying all of us who are not Buffy who agree with her are her serf?

I'm not wearing a sack, even for Buffy.

You're not violent. Why should we even give a shit?

Exactly, why is there always the need for men to tell us that they aren't violent? Unless it's to acknowledge that their sex often is, and that in their non violence, they are in some way special. No, you're just behaving like a human being. Special would be doing something to stop other members of your sex from their violence.

Your good intentions are worse than useless because you comfort yourself that you are a good guy and therefore above criticism when in fact it's you and millions like you who just let the others get away, literally, with murder.

Quite.

Blimey, Grimarse's posting is tedious.

Plus as I said earlier, the men who aren't violent but who don't do anything to stop the violent men or do anything about their violence are just as much a part of the problem. Your good intentions are worse than useless because you comfort yourself that you are a good guy and therefore above criticism when in fact it's you and millions like you who just let the others get away, literally, with murder.

'The value is that every man who thinks like this is one who does not do all the things you are discussing. And no, I don't want a medal for treating women with respect. Because I'm sure someone would like to mention it.'

Why do you want any credit at all for not doing something?? I don't steal, I don't hit people, I don't throw rubbish out my car window, but I don't expect even the tiniest bit of recognition for those things, not from anyone, because I consider them to be so utterly basic as to be essential for any decent human being.

Equally you say you 'don't do the things we are discussing.' Well...em... bully for you. You're not violent. Why should we even give a shit?

Ooo! Is FWR Buffy's personal fiefdom?

Are you saying all of us who are not Buffy who agree with her are her serf?

Who exactly are you trying to insult?

You seem to be equating discourse with some desperate need to be noticed. I don't want your attention (beyond an immediate discussion), or praise, or thanks. It is not your board. It is a public place for people to congregate and discuss a particular political set of values. If MN want to make it a feminist-only place, then I will respect that, but it isn't. Similarly, you started your own thread earlier for like-minded people to converse. I respect that too, and kept out. But I wish you would realise that FWR is not your personal fiefdom. You have been picked up on it in the past.