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Original poster

Working Parents

85 replies

KittyOShea · 24/04/2016 11:47

I haven't posted in here before but definitely describe myself as a feminist.

Over the last few weeks I have seen a number of depressing threads on here about wives prioritising their husband's work or calculating their salary excluding childcare costs (only their salary not their joint salary). It seems the husband's career always comes first.

Maybe this is bad form as its a thread inspired by other threads but it's lead me to think about the societal influences that mean it's always the woman who goes part time/ quits work.

I should say here that DH and I were unable to have DC so we have not had to tackle this one but when we were ttc we had decided that if someone had to step back in terms of work it would be him as I am the higher earner and he is much more domesticated than I am. Is this so unusual in the 21st century?

Is there anything we as a society can do that changes this way of thinking?

OP posts:
Original poster
KittyOShea · 24/04/2016 13:52

I'd like to reduce the pay gap for all women almond not just those In their thirties. I included that information to explain that that is my experience amongst my friends as opposed to saying that's all I care about.

That said the issue of mothers in their teens and twenties according to your suspicion is still the same- they are likely to be earning less than their male counterparts.

Is this discrimination against women or mothers? And either way what can we as a society do about it? (I'm not asking you to give a definitive answer btw just interested in others opinions and if there is something I can do to help)

OP posts:
almondpudding · 24/04/2016 13:38

I never mentioned marriage. Half of children are born to unmarried women.

In 2014, the average age of a new mother was 28 and a new father was 32 and a half. That is a four and a half year difference.

Half of all women who become mothers will already have children in their twenties. Many will be SAHPs. I don't know the stats but I suspect women who have kids in their twenties are more likely to be in low paid part time work, or be SAHPs. If the latter, they're not in the pay gap statistics anyway.

If you want to reduce the pay gap for women in their thirties, look at the opportunities available for women who had kids in their teens and twenties who are now entering careers in their thirties, rather than putting all the focus on keeping wealthier women who built careers in their twenties and who have kids in their thirties in positions of wealth.

Because I would suggest that is a large cause of the pay gap. Discrimination against young mums re-entering employment in their thirties and being pushed into work below their skill and qualification level due to discrimination. Those women show in the gender wage gap stats. Women in their thirties now at home with kids do not.

Original poster
KittyOShea · 24/04/2016 13:24

However all mothers are childless women first. And most work so their earnings prior to motherhood are relevant- especially if they lessen due to having children when men's don't.

Interesting statistic about age of motherhood and who they marry. I suppose we rarely see outside of our own demographic. Most of my friends married and had children in their early to mid 30s to men within a year or two of their own age. And in several cases, including my own, to men who earn less. Despite this most of them are now the ones who are working part time and therefore much less likely to progress in their career.

Coupling that with recent threads on here it does seem to me that on a societal level, once people have children, men's careers take priority. It frustrates me I guess that women will never have true economic or career equality if this trend continues.

OP posts:
almondpudding · 24/04/2016 13:10

We're talking about mothers not all women.

Nearly half of mothers still have their first baby before they are thirty, and generally mothers have children with older, wealthier men.

Original poster
KittyOShea · 24/04/2016 13:04

I get that on an individual basis almond and agree with some of the suggestions you put forward to change things on a societal level.

Women in their 20s are currently out earning men. I fear that this will go into a sharp reverse once this generation reach their 30s as these same women 'step back' once they have children as socialisation will again come to the fore and the man's career will be prioritised. I have seen it happen again and again in my own peer group (early 40s) where the woman takes a career break/ leaves work/ goes part time even in those cases where she is the higher earner.

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almondpudding · 24/04/2016 12:56

There's no choice in it for many women. If the childcare costs plus work costs are higher than their salary, they can't afford to work. The best thing for the family financially is then to support the person who can afford to work to earn more.

The best ways to change this would be...

a. Provide free childcare.
b. Provide greater opportunities for women who have been SAHPs or done low paid part time work to fit around kids to access career opportunities when their kids are older.

An example would be at one point the government was trying to push some scheme to give ex forces people access to teaching jobs. Schemes like that should exist across a number of core professions for SAHPs wishing to go into a career.

Original poster
KittyOShea · 24/04/2016 12:55

Yes I agree that the 'default position' can also be difficult for men in terms of pressure to earn and lack of time with their children.

I guess it's the fact that there is a default position at all in this day and age I find so depressing. It will be interesting to see if new policies on shared parental leave will have any effect on this in the long term

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HappyAsASandboy · 24/04/2016 12:48

I agree there is a huge amount of work to do in levelling pay, giving women the same opportunities as men, allowing choice when it comes to parents leave etc, but fundamentally I think individual choices will mean that male careers are prioritised.

I am a senior manager in a professional job. I earned more than my partner until about the time we had children (a coincidence - that's just when he got a promotion that meant he earned a similar amount). When I had children, I took 12 months maternity leave because I wanted to be with my babies. During that year, DH gained 12 months more experience and skill. When I returned to work, I chose to be the parent that started early/left early to do the nursery pick up (leaving at 4pm is never outweighed by starting at 7am IME), because I wanted to see my babies every night. My DH's career has subsequently taken off and he ears far more than me because he volunteers for extra projects, networks in the evenings, goes away on business regularly etc; all of which I try to minimise because I want to spend time with my babies.

My DH would tell you the flip side of the story. His career has been prioritised, so he feels very responsible for the standard of life we will live for the rest of our lives. He is sacrificing time with our kids while they are young in order to build his career while he can.

So I have time with the kids but a stalled career; DH has a great career but minimal time with the kids; the kids have the support of one parent and the opportunities paid for by the other; DH and I manage with very little time together! We all win and lose in different ways, but in ways we have chosen.

I guess what I am saying is that often this isn't a feminist issue. It's just about the priorities and choices we make. I don't think either men or women can have it all; we just have to make the best choices we can and expect to have those choices supported.

Btw I have a very supportive DH. If I asked him to take on more of 'home life' so that I could work more/differently then he absolutely would. But we would have to accept that in doing so, I would lose time with my kids and he would lose career potential. That isn't the right choice for us.

Original poster
KittyOShea · 24/04/2016 12:27

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to promote/ employ as I'm a teacher. I do however emphasise equality of career and ambition to my pupils (secondary school- mainly A Level) and tell my male pupils off for mansplaining Grin

I just find it so depressing that the default position by women is to prioritise their husbands career. Even in terms of who takes time off for sick children. Surely these choices by women also have their part to play in terms of employers views on employing/ promoting women? The disproportionate number of women who step back does us as a society no favours while perhaps working well for an individual situation.

I am not, of course, suggesting that women are causing their own problems but that socialisation seems to lead to the view that DH will earn more/ travel more with work/ get promoted/ is not suited to childcare or domestic duties. And therefore he is prioritised.

I agree the money issue is crucial- we all need to pay the bills.

OP posts:
VestalVirgin · 24/04/2016 12:18

Is there anything we as a society can do that changes this way of thinking?

Well, the most obvious reason why women decide to prioritise their husband's job is because he earns more.

So, if you are in a position where you can decide who gets a promotion and a pay raise, you could change something by prioritising women instead of just assuming that they will leave when they have children.

Money is an important factor on which people base their decisions. In the long run, if women earned as much as men in all jobs, (and also typical "women's jobs" were paid as well as typical "men's jobs" for similar levels of qualification, i.e. years needed to get the qualification), things would even out because people would be able to make a free decision.

Some are sexist enough to prioritise the husband's job even when he earns less, but that can be tackled by fighting sexism in the media, etc.

In my opinion, the hard money facts are the more influential factor, as even feminists may have to prioritise money.