Brighton primary school admissions - gender identity

CoteDAzur
You say, "I am no different than a man, except physically, and never have been."
Then a few sentences later,
"If one day I find myself convinced that I am something that my eyes say I am obviously not (man...) ridicule & ostracisation would be the least of my worries. I would be terrified that I have had a psychotic break."

So you're no different to a man, except physically? But you're not a man because you can see the bits that are different, like genitalia etc. And if you think you're a man you're psychotic even though you're no different to a man inside."

WOW!! High brow stuff this!!!

A flawed experiment (and that's putting it mildly) cannot do anything to prove or disprove anything. It's just a completely unethical waste of everyone's time.

Yes. Can you definitively outline the available (and real and innate) genders and list their characteristics? Is there a nice objective test I can apply to determine what my gender is?

Because, if it's actually a real thing, you will be able to precisely define it and the categories within it. If it's just a load of socially constructed nonsense, it will be wooly, variable and utterly impossible to properly distinguish between its subclasses (which gender very clearly is).

Ophelia Money's experiment didn't prove anything. Once again, I didn't say that. I said it was the failure of his experiment, the failure of it and the lies he told about it, which opened up a whole debate about the perpetuation of this "gender is a social construct" myth.

And HairyLittlePoet It's accepted that gender, like sexuality and politics and colour and light, exists on a spectrum so identify anywhere you care to. Gender is not a binary. The binary is a social construct. The bible told me so.

Sunburnt - re "We are all born with a gender identity"

Speak for yourself. I am no different than a man, except physically, and never have been.

"But if someone repeatedly says "he" and "him" to me I take offence. Why?"

No idea. Why do you?

If someone were to repeatedly say "he" while referring to me, I would think he is a bit blind or has some sort of cognitive problem.

"I know I'm a woman. And if someone tells me I look like a man, it stings. I get a jarring feeling. I take offence. I feel insulted."

Because you think it means you are ugly? Sorry, I really don't get it

"Try some empathy. Thats a scratch on the tip of the iceberg of what gender dysphoria feels like. Imagine walking around every day with that feeling as a kid in school and the fear of what might happen to you if you tell someone..."

If one day I find myself convinced that I am something that my eyes say I am obviously not (man, alien, lizard, cat, a toddler, etc), ridicule & ostracisation would be the least of my worries. I would be terrified that I have had a psychotic break.

Money was trying to force a binary gender onto intersex children, and force a binary gender role onto children against their will.

Money was mental and I would be seriously suspicious of anyone using his experiments to prove or disprove anything.

Sunburnt

How many types of gender identity are there, and how can I work out what my gender identity is? You're sure everyone has one?

John Money was not on 'our side of the fence'. At all. His practices were dangerous and abusive and ultimately offered no 'proof' either way.

There is an enormous body of research literature that very clearly establishes that gender (as distinct from biological sex) is a social construct, which has varied over time and differs between cultures in various ways. There is nothing innate in it because it's a concept that emerges as a result of social practices. If you'd like to research this for yourself, try your local university library.

I haven't cited the American College of Pediatricians for anything.

Sunburnt, is it actually helpful to anything for you to be claiming posters are on the side of child abuse?

Nobody apart from you is claiming that child abuse is proof of anything.

Oh Ophelia! Try to keep up. I wrote "That was evident after the failure of social experiment gender expert John Money's inflicted in the famous John/ Joan case."
The FAILURE of his case. Money posited that gender WAS a social construct. He was on your side of the fence.
How did the child know he was a boy despite years of directive behavioural therapy telling him otherwise, castration, oestrogen treatment. Read the kids life story. He fought what was imposed on him his whole life until at fourteen his father relented and told him the truth, that he was born a boy.
The kid knew all along he was a boy. So despite everything that happened, how did the kid KNOW he was a boy? And why did it matter to him that he was a boy? Huh?

I thought gender was social practices. How else do you learn social practices other than through being socialised into them?

StepAwayFromTheThesaurus And your proof of this exists where? With the "American College of Paediatrics"? N.A.R.T.H.? Go on. Enlighten us all.

sunburnt Fucking John Money, are you serious? The guy that forced intersex children into unwanted gender roles in his "experiments" and consequently fucked up their whole lives?

The guy who forced children to perform sex acts on one another as part of his "experiments" which would be considered illegal pedophilia in our country,

Are you seriously basing your ideas of "Gender" on this madman?

Sexual orientation matters because it does
People are attracted to other people sexually because of their primary and secondary sexual characteristics. Lesbian women like Vulvas and breasts. So do heterosexual men etc. What does that have to do with gender identity?

Yes, gender is a social construct
John money took a male child, with male hormones and a male body and tried to raise him as a girl. He was also sexually abusive to both boys. His failed experiment only proves that biological sex is a formative part of brain development through childhood and adolescence, and that if you sexually abuse children they will be very unhappy and may commit suicide.

Gender only exists because we continue to reify it through social practices.

No one is born with a gender identity because gender is nothing more than a social construct. There is absolutely nothing inherent or necessary about gender.

No one is denying that gender dysphoria is a real condition that causes considerable trauma to the children affected and their families. No one wants any of these children to suffer.

What people are saying is that this is not actually going to help them. It may actually do the children it's supposedly trying to help harm. And even if it could help a very small number of children, it could only do so by causing harm to many, many more children. That's not proportionate or reasonable.

These kind of attempts to medicalise gender are dangerous and extremely problematic for everyone.

scallopsrgreat Nice concept in an imaginary far away land but how do we "remove gender"? In real life gender matters because it exists.
If gender didn't matter then neither would sexual orientation?
Gender is not just a "social construct". People caught on to that years ago. That was evident after the failure of social experiment gender expert John Money's inflicted in the famous John/ Joan case.

scallopsrgreat Nice concept in an imaginary far away land but how do we "remove gender"? In real life gender matters because it exists.
If gender didn't matter then neither would sexual orientation?
Gender is not just a "social construct". People caught on to that years ago. That was evident after the failure of social experiment gender expert John Money's inflicted in the famous John/ Joan case.

*prefer

What sex are you? = not a hard question

Do you preper pink or blue forever for the rest of your life? = pretty upsetting and difficult question.

We are all born with a gender identity

Evidence for this please? I strongly disagree

No one would have gender disphoria if gender didnt exist. Gender was made up in the first place. It can't be too hard to challenge.

The first time you use a pronoun you are treating girls and boys differently.
We are all born with a gender identity but most of us never have to think about this stuff for very long because most of us were born with a gender identity congruent or matching our biological sex.
As women, we have all had to battle the patriarchy and the constructed boundaries around gender expression that we have inherited in our cultures.

But if someone repeatedly says "he" and "him" to me I take offence. Why? Because I know I'm a woman. How do I know? Because I was born with a vagina and ovaries? Because I have breasts? Because I've been told my whole life since I was born that I'm female? Or is it because I know I'm a woman. How do I know? Because I feel like a woman? Because I know I'm not a man?
I hate pink, hated wearing skirts and dress when I was a kid and as soon as I was allowed to, I cut my hair short. But I still knew I was a girl. I know I'm a woman.
And if someone tells me I look like a man, it stings. I get a jarring feeling. I take offence. I feel insulted.
Try some empathy. Thats a scratch on the tip of the iceberg of what gender dysphoria feels like. Imagine walking around every day with that feeling as a kid in school and the fear of what might happen to you if you tell someone...