I'm giving up.

Garlic - Thank you for helping to pave the way for change to benefit women.

I agree with Destinysdaughter first post.

Personally I think it is counterproductive to blame the ignorant. Look at the influences surrounding the younger generation. Can the frustration be directed at media outlets, the PM, local MP's?

I was fortunate that my mum and her partner planted the seeds in my mind. When I embarked on adulthood I was (and probably still am) ignorant to many inequalities. Women like you and many others on this board have helped to open my eyes. I go away and reflect and to understand their POV but I still have the right to choose if I share the same opinion or not.

My concern with so many responses on this thread of wanting to give up, to not debate with younger ignorant people is counterproductive . Believe it or not there are thousands reading who do not post and you might be helping those people become aware of their choice/rights.

It's a shame to see some posts slating the ignorant or not being able to argue with stupid. I personally think that gives this board a bad rap. Those that have this knowledge can share with clear clean facts to back up any argument, do it! You might be bored of defending you corner or repeating yourself but I thought this was a board for discussion. To be challenged and to therefore debate. The ignorant will go away to either reflect or get bored and stop posting.

Just remember these boards are representing feminists so it's a real disservice to publicly call others stupid, what if the women before us gave up. I'm sure they faced the same struggles if not worst.

I hope you're feeling better today. Please do not stop educating and sharing. The people on your FB group surely do not teaching?

Well yes, and thank you slugs that really proves my point -- I'm very sorry to say. Opinions like yours seem to be the ones that prevail and that's why so many women, who are coming from a more moderate perspective are steering clear.

The non men thing annoyed me too and lots of my life choices aren't particularly feminist (I don't work for example atm) Are men non women? oh no they are just still fucking Men

Muskateer and olivia go away, you are quite tiresome to bring your issues to this thread. You are also part of the problem. The "I'm alright Jack" mentality is sounding a bum note right now.

Garlic my heart sank a little bit further when I saw the "non-men" thing too

Also the widespread support in recent years for likes of the rapist Evans and sexual groomer Johnson has been depressing me mightily

And lots of other stuff. Sometimes it gets too much. Look after your health for a while, step off the treadmill and have a break from it. x

I agree Grimarse and historically the feminist movement has been allied with the gay rights movement for example. I can understand why younger feminists just take on the trans narrative unquestioningly and see it as something similar. But when it gets to the stage where I'm pointing out the tragedy of the Olympics Committee decision to someone who retorts with "Transwomen are women. How dare you say they aren't" without addressing a single point that I've made and refusing to engage, then I despair at the total lack of critical thinking. I do not see the aggressive adherents of the trans narrative as vulnerable in the slightest, not when they've gained such rapid and alarming ground in "privileged" women's discursive and actual space. And the feminists who blindly go along with this - useful idiots comes to mind.

I just despair.

I don't know how to start thinking about how to combat this kind of thing. I just thought about the trend for no platforming for a few seconds and wanted to smash my face off the table.

Who are these cretins and how did they end up so utterly brainless?

It's like anything anyone says is automatically valid, unless it offends someone.

They have grow used to such privilege that they think the only thing left to fight is offence.

Well said Muskateersmummy. Excellent points..

Though I am generally more optimistic than Garlic (see my previous posts), reading yesterday's FB posts by a Green Party Non-Male representative who earnestly lists "Agender, Gender Fluid, Bigender, Gender Nonconforming, Gender Questioning, Genderqueer, Gender Variant, Non Binary and Two Spirit" as gender possibilities does make me want to lock myself into a darkened room with a bottle of single malt and a pistol.

I think that whilst I appreciate the need for feminism to give us all those things mentioned, the reason women like myself struggle to identify with being a feminist is that for me all of those things were to give us the right to choose. But in many of the conversations I see with feminists, If the woman makes the "wrong" choices, she is letting the sisterhood down. That very aggressive stance makes it hard to identify with. I'm very much about equality for everyone to choose, but personally choose pretty traditional roles for myself. Feminism doesn't feel very accepting of women wanting to take a more traditional role for themselves

People born into a world of rights and privilege are almost never aware of the struggles that went before them. This is true of feminism and just about every other social justice movement in history. It is frustrating when you see it happening. But the trick is, I think, to step back, take a deep breath and go again when you feel refreshed.

I do think some of the newer arguments within feminism though can be seen to be discriminatory and exclusionary, even if to your eyes they are not. Again, if you are born into rights and privilege, most people with an ounce of humanity want to reach out and help groups that they see as oppressed and excluded.

Biological women get pregnant Mycrispbag. I don't care how someone wants to present themselves and will use their desired pronoun out of courtesy, but you're not going to thoughtcrime me into talking about "pregnant men".

I know what you mean, it is frustrating and upsetting. But women like you are needed and your contribution on mn is valued.

I am 60 & feel exactly the same as you, Garlic.

Why the fuck did we bother?

By the fucking way what about transmen? Fuck them apparently.

Twats.

Bloody hell. I was toying with the idea of voting Green in the local elections. I shall toy no more.

I have voted for them in every election since I was able to vote (admittedly I wouldn't have in 2010/15 if I didn't live in such a safe seat). Never again.

I honestly can't believe that statement they have issued. Fuck them.

Mid-50s here Garlic, on my gazillionth namechange on MN.
I agree with you completely. All that energy and effort and achievement being undervalued and smashed and thrown away by the very people who should be advancing the causes we fought for.

Here*

Please don't give up Garlic, at least not on her. Although I completely understand why you feel that way.

I am early 30s. I was raised by 2 non-feminists who were, luckily, both aware of the importance of education, so I was able to get a good education. But about things like women being responsible for their own rape because they had a drink or wore a short skirt, or not changing your name on marriage, I'm fighting against the tide.

Many women these days Don't Get It. But IME it's not just young women, although I can see why it feels that way, they are probably more vocal about it online.

I thank you for everything you have done for us. Some of us really do appreciate it.

I agree, I definitely think there's been a resurgence of feminism amongst younger women especially since the 90s when 'Ladette' culture was all the rage and feminism almost seemed like a dirty word!

I fully appreciate the battles fought and won by previous generations of feminists, but I think it is worth remembering how many battles there are still to go, and please don't give up on younger generations of feminism just because many don't want to fight - there's loads of us who do!

Destinysdaughter, an older colleague of mine was refused a car loan in the early 80s without her husband's signature, even though she was working and he was an unemployed alcoholic.

Bloody hell. I was toying with the idea of voting Green in the local elections. I shall toy no more.

Young women here might not know enough about history, but surely they can see the injustices and discrimination that's still all too prevalent in other countries?

Wasn't it only in the 60's that women couldn't get a mortgage on their own?

And rape within marriage was only criminalised in 91/92?