I'm giving up.

Meddie I always dressed my girls in pink and allowed them to play with make up and Disney princesses and didn't see what peoples problem was with it. Until my older two went through Prom don't get me started on what I think about that americanised shit how I heard woman talking to their daughters in the dress shops about losing weight and how much work needed to be done on their appearances and the mothers desperation for their daughters to have a date for the event. Wow. Just wow.

Thanks buffy that was a really useful post, I will be adding it to my arsenal of arguments to use next time I have to storm down the school in my heels and fake tan and complain about their failure to challenge misogynistic attitudes, objectification and rape culture.

meddie a lot of your post resonated with me too

My personal opinion is that there's a complex mess of internalised sexism, ageism and backlash. When we're younger, it's easier to be 'cool' and not fussed about all that stuff that older women keep talking about, because generally men and male dominated society approved of our physical attractiveness, youth and lack of power. Older women are much happier to look at the criteria for male approval and think 'fuck that' so the influence of older women has to be diminished somehow. It's already going with the grain to ignore older women, because older women aren't so pretty and pliable anyway, so they're (we're) already less likely to be approved of.

This, oh so much this. I see the younger women at work and they reject feminism, because currently they are 'the favoured ones' They don't see a problem.

They have bought in totally to the objectification of women and instead of railing against it, rail against each other for not coming up to standard.
If I hear one more comment from them about how "so and so looks a state because she hasn't had her fake tan/nails/lost weight/curly blow * done(delete as necessary). I swear to god I will slam their fake lipped duck faces together until they stick. Now they are bringing up a new generation of girls who are 'mummys little princess' who's only goal in life is to be pink and sparkly and fluffy and to do pouty duck face at the age of 3 (I shit you not) and be told how gawjus she is...

It makes me want to throw the towel in too.

"some of the newer arguments within feminism though can be seen to be discriminatory and exclusionary"

I would like to understand why feminism ( = advocacy of the rights of human females) has to be inclusive of adult human males, regardless of their gender or lack thereof.

You do have the right to choose, however, if your choices are damaging to women as a whole hint: being a SAHM isn't this , then other women have the right to choose to call bullshit. Women's choices don't happen in a vacuum, no matter how much some women want it to be so.

Yeah, making yourself financially dependent on a man (which most SAHMs are) is very risky and I would not recommend it, but it doesn't harm other women.

In fact, feminism has fought for the typical wifework to be recognized as work, (not that we are there yet) so I am frequently confused as to why women think it is feminism that devalues and belittles unpaid work inside the home, when it is actually patriarchy that does this.

It is somewhat similar with the whole "whorephobia" nonsense. Feminists don't hate prostituted women, we just think it's not good for them to stay in a situation where men hate them, harm them and frequently murder them.

A typical "shoot the messenger" reaction ...

I too am another one who's lurked for a long, long time and I've always liked your posts buffy. I too have made life choices in a 50's style, however I do appreciate the fact that feminism gave me the right choose. Please, please don't flame me and throw me off the board for saying so, but I have never been involved in feminism because of being looked down on in RL by woman who identify as feminist. While I don't understand a lot of the academia behind it or a lot of the academic posts made, I like this board and have a read a lot of opinions on here that I similar to what I am coming to believe because of the life experiences my daughters have had. Please let me stay and please keep posting because I have to believe that their are others like me, lurking and listening.

Great post, Buffy.

Garlic, do you have a copy of Backlash? I am just remembering the introduction where she talks about the history of feminism being like a slanty corkscrew - it twists around through ups and downs but ends up a bit better after each cycle. Obviously there are a lot of assumptions there and maybe she's wrong, but I think at least its a reassuring reminder that you/we won't be the first generation of feminists to have felt like this.

Otherwise, hugs and

Buffy, well said!

Actually I was aiming that post at AnyFucker. Your's slugs was slightly less intolerant.

That's ok slugs. I would hate anyone to thick I was kicking garlic when she was down. Don't lose hope. We do see and we do appreciate.

Younger women are having to forge their way in a world moulded by extreme porn violence and even more warped young men and social media to boot in general, i find your generalistation of us young women very offence actually every generation faces issues. The trans issue i dont know enough about.

I'm one of those thousands, mentioned above, who rarely post, but read every post and follow up links.
I'm almost sure that if it weren't for the more knowledgeable posters on here, I would have just gone along with things that I've come to realise are actually unacceptable to me. This board is an invaluable source of inspiration/encouragement to me in my day to day 'fight'.

I was v. disappointed, a week ago, to be told by a fellow single mother (of daughters) that I am wasting my time, as we're all equal now; that any woman can do anything she wants to do and the only thing stopping them is negative people, like me, telling them they can't!

On a more positive note, my 21y old DS regularly challenges sexist shit on FB, and in RL. Interestingly, he straightaway recognised the transactivist misogyny, whereas the friend mentioned above who is in her 30s, feels no need to look beyond the surface.
So, there is hope. And many, many of us truly appreciate just how much harder our lives would be, were it not for the OP and others like her.

Don't give up.

Some of us are listening, and learning.

Like others have said, as a young woman you take for granted what you grow up with, its only as you get older and you learn what the previous generation did, that your eyes are opened beyond your own little world and its status quo.

Its easy to take for granted what you never had to fight for, and i did.. it wasnt until i became a wife and mother myself that i really understood what you'd been fighting for... when i see the news and see my peers in other countries being denied such basic rights as i've always had.. only because of the fight you and others like you fought.

Keep posting, keep teaching, without people like you, people like me wouldn't learn and know and carry the torch forward.

I'm just here to say Garlic, I understand completely why you feel like this. I am not at your point (yet) but I get how exhausting it is to have to fight the same fight over and over again - only this time we are constantly being told we are the oppressors, too, which just makes my blood turn to ice.

Anyway: . Here's hoping the tide turns, and sooner rather than later.

I was pleased to have a conversation with a colleague in her 20s who turned out to use "Ms", was engaged but not changing her name. I was pleased as it is so far from the norm with younger staff (teachers) who all seem to have gone back to being called Miss. In fact Garlic I should be doing more in the classroom and will put something in place for next year. Little acorns and all that.

(sorry that took a bloody age to write, I was responding to your first post there Muskateers, not trying to be a dick)

Muskateers, if you're talking about being a SAHM and all that entails, then I'm afraid you're wrong about feminism not being accepting of that. Radical maternal feminism is a strong and becoming louder voice within feminism. Wanting to stay at home and bring children up instead of working outside the home is a choice that many feminists make, and they do it in the full knowledge of the ramifications of that choice, personally and for women as a class.

You do have the right to choose, however, if your choices are damaging to women as a whole hint: being a SAHM isn't this , then other women have the right to choose to call bullshit. Women's choices don't happen in a vacuum, no matter how much some women want it to be so.

Sorry, it was not meant to be argumentative more to say that it's not that we don't appreciate all that the women who have worked tirelessly for us have done, because I for one do.

Apologies if my post was seen to be a kick whilst you're down Garlic - I honestly do admire all the things you say you have champaigned for and was trying to encourage you not to give up!!

Some of my reply was really general rather than directed at you anway