I'm giving up.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think pink should be vilified,

Of course not. It is just a colour. It is just a symbol of everything that's wrong - the way toys for girls are designed to make them roleplay housewives, (or worse, brainless shopping zombies), discourage their creativity, etc. And the way clothes for girls are designed to hinder movement.

Someone should start a business selling sensible toys that are painted pink, but nothing else changed. That would make it easier to find toys for girls who are conditioned to love pink, but are not wholly brainwashed yet.

crazycatdad presumably if your not an expert on a topic you have sense to not venture forth as an authority? Gender politics do affect all of us (man or woman) thus we all tend to have opinions on it, but the analysis can get quite in depth and detailed and seeing as feminism views the topic from a woman's perspective there are a hell of a lot of pitfalls men can fall into when engaging with it even with good intentions.

crazy, I'm mystified by this - apart from anything else, find me anyone who wouldn't love a dino rocking horse!

Finally - I think part of the problem is that unless we do a bit of anti-pink, some people will represent only pink to girls.

A pp - Muskateersmummy - was saying (I will paraphrase) something about traditinal choices being undermined in feminism. I was lost from feminism at some point in my early 30s because I felt it was all about motherhood so that's interesting.

And who decides if a feminist hasn't been clear or critical enough in her thinking to warrant your intervention? Would that be you?

I generally make that decision about everything I say, so yes. Not sure what point you are trying to make.

lorelei I still don't have an issue with pink. I wasn't allowed anything pink and sparkly that I wanted as a child by my dad who also wouldn't allow my Mum to wear make-up. I heavily rebelled against this. I grew up during and began having children in the 90's lad culture. I always let my daughters go about in their Disney princess dresses and sparkly shoes. They also liked trains and dinosaurs, the dinosaurs too had pink sparkly dresses As teens they tell me I am a twat for never going out unless I'm done up (in a very good natured way). My older two are now studying science subjects and have very similar opinions on the trans issue to this board. I've seen girls who grew up with them who weren't allowed pink go heavily down the 'duckface' route. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think pink should be vilified, but I don't think it should be forced on girls as their only option either. I guess I'm probably attempting to express a similar view to buffy, but I'm not as articulate.

lorelei understand what you mean re gifts for kids. We recently had DS1 but didn't find out the sex until birth, so we've been getting lots of that kind of thing off relatives. One relative gave a lovely giraffe rocking horse with the comment, "They had dinosaur ones but we couldn't get one of them since we didn't know if it was a girl or boy". Cue DW and I banging heads off the wall. It really was lovely but, whether a girl or boy, a T-Rex rocking horse would have been SO FREAKING COOL.

If it's any consolation I have become able to declare myself a feminist since coming on MN. Big deal you cry
Don't despair, Garlic you're just a bit weary. I remember being a Trade Union rep when I was a SALT. We went up to Parliament to fight for higher pay and equality with other health professionals. Then things got better but I felt that the younger therapists didn't give a shit about our campaigning. There isn't so much idealism as there was in the '60s 70s and even 80s. The Thatcher/Blair ethos was every man and woman for themselves.
I retrained at 40 and the female students were incredibly cut throat. Not much sign of the sisterhood there. As for the obsession with appearance and focus on celebrities Aaaaaagh! You may try to blame this on 'patriarchy' but I think it's a warped type of ambition.

Any way I've learned a lot on here from posters on here like you. For example that trans women are men who want to grab special rights. The use of vocabulary to enhance the status of people who want to be seen as women but special women who have their own special facilities and no one must criticise them ever.
What you are bemoaning is selfishness and lack of gratitude and you're absolutely right. I know this is an illogical rambling post by the way.

I'm sure you'd never dream of doing that though, right?

I'd have no qualms saying those things to individuals if it was warranted, but no, I wouldn't try to address an entire movement in that manner.

PS I am not a makeup user but I am getting to the point where I feel a normal workplace doesn't really know what an un-madeup face looks like.

finallydelurking - I'd be really interested to hear more about your experience.

you say you didn't see the problem with pink etc. I have a male friend who couldn't see it either. Now he has a god-daughter, he has said to me "I'm sorry I minimised your concerns - I'm stunned at the crap that is marketed for girls' gifts".

He also has a nephew so now he is really seeing the contrast.

a lot of what is said here resonates with me and I really struggle with the obsession with looks. I feel I'm giving in to it to some extent but when colleagues are presenting themselves with very high grooming standards, suddenly what was fine looks unsmart.

So much depends on your life experience, and most younger people haven't had much yet. So when I was early twenties, having attended a grammar school and studied engineering at a russel group uni I started work in engineering and was genuinely accepted as an equal to male peers - both personally and professionally. We had a lot of women in senior roles and I was very lucky - I didn't need feminism because I hadn't directly experienced much sexism (that I'd noticed).

It wasn't until I switched to teaching and my friends started getting married and having kids (late 20s) that I actually realised how many women were treated differently just because they were women. That's when I decided I was a feminist, though tbf given the definitions I suppose I always have been one.

What I'm trying to say (in a very convoluted way) is that there was a period of time when I was part of a privileged few who not only hadn't experienced significant sexism, I didn't actually even know anyone of my generation who had. So yeah, I thought we didn't need feminism - partly due to ignorance, partly due to "I'm alright, Jack" but partly because the previous generation's feminism had achieved so much.

Surely that's the goal though - to advance women's rights to a point where the next generation of women won't need feminism anymore. That's my personal aim anyway.

crazycatdad would you argue that the civil rights movement ought to be 'inclusive' of white people? Or the various disability activity groups ought to be 'inclusive' of the able bodied?

Absolutely, yes, and for the same reason - not being a member of the group in question doesn't preclude one from identifying and empathising with the issues at hand. I don't think that necessarily implies any reprioritising of the agenda either.

Cases where one group of activists are co-opting an agenda and conflating disparate issues to gain validity and political ground are obviously problematic (case in point, trans activism).

CoteDAzur ah I misunderstood you then, and I agree. Though now I think about it, I don't recall seeing many trans women speaking up in favour of feminism, which makes me wonder how many really care and many pick and choose issues as a vehicle for their own agenda.

anyfucker I know it isn't feminists that devalue it and I know it's not this board. I have been sneered at by woman though who claim to be feminists. I think they're misogynists not feminists though especially given the behaviour of their sons I am really not here to cause offence, I'm reading and learning with ever increasing interest.

I've come across it too, though I prefer to think of myself as a carer rather than a sahm, though the name changing poster just seems to hate the disabled and carers anyway but the last time I posted this my post went poof! As if by magic

Im in my mid 20's , 2 boys and work in a very female dominated area, if someone says to me they dont identify as feminist because they wear bras or something else silly then i point out to them that free contraception , access to refuges are all there due to feminism, im sure there are some daft women my age but not all dont tar us all with the same brush, you all have a lot more life experience then someone my age.

delurking I don't know where you have come across feminists before but if you use this board regularly you will see that the status of a SAHP is not sneered at but felt to be one that needs fully acknowledging

it isn't feminists that devalue it, not my flavour of feminism anyway

Another one here who took a depressingly long time to appreciate the continued need for feminism. I too remember saying embarrassingly stupid things about it as a young woman (I'm 44). Lurking on the MN feminism board has taught me a great deal.
I realise it must be very depressing for you to hear and read ignorant comments from young women, but the intelligent, rational and thoughtful posts on here (especially those posted by some of the wise and knowledgeable stalwarts of the MN feminism board) must at least help to bring some to their senses. I definitely experienced that 'waking up to the Matrix' feeling when I first started realising the staggering amount of everyday sexism that still goes on.

"a capacity for critical thought and a sense of fairness are more relevant to the task of advocating for equality"

Sure, males can be feminists. Nobody is saying that men can't advocate for women's rights.

What I am saying is that feminism isn't about males, even if those males want to be called "she".

So again: Feminism = Advocacy of the rights of human females. Why does it have to be "inclusive" of males?

Meddie, yes. Even if you've been a feminist from an early age, it's a shock how the world treats you differently when you aren't young and pretty anymore. It wasn't a massive deal for me- I was quite pretty but not a "stunner" and how I looked wasn't something I obsessed about when I was young - but for the hyper-groomed young women I see it's going to be worse. My 28 year old sister in law and her friends are talking about Botox ffs..

I would like to understand why feminism ( = advocacy of the rights of human females) has to be inclusive of adult human males, regardless of their gender or lack thereof.

I would say it's because a capacity for critical thought and a sense of fairness are more relevant to the task of advocating for equality than simply possessing ovaries but then I am obviously not impartial on the subject.