I'm giving up.

Haven't read every post here so not sure if the thread's moved on but I found that OP so incredibly sad. I'm in my late thirties so in between the two groups, but one of the things I've enjoyed about the feminist groups I've been to is the way that older and younger women seem to listen to each other. I do know some passionate, courageous young feminists so they do exist! And surely in the sixties and seventies there were plenty of women who claimed not be feminist back then too?

I have benefited Garlick and I am grateful.

I would be unaware of the attitudes to "non-men" had I not read threads on here raising objections to WEP and Greens policies and statements and although I do not always agree with GG on this I do. It may or may not cheer you to know I raised it with the 2 teenage DDs when they came home from school. Their considered opinion is that if you have a penis you don't get a say in who comes into the girls' changing room.

My grandmother was a graduate working mother. My other grandmother was an adjunct to my grandfather's job as a ploughman. They were both equally involved in working, childrearing and housekeeping. My grandfather never had more than the price of a packet of tobacco in his pocket as he was not in control of the HH budget.

My DM brought me up as a single parent and was able to get a mortgage and a bank account and a decent job in part because of feminism.

I am a graduate like my grandmother and worked in the City before retiring early to be a SAHP. Equality in the workplace was not a reality when I left it 15 years ago and the steady stream of constructive dismissal cases even now suggest it is still not. Nevertheless, I think progress has been made and I have been able to choose to be a SAHP rather than being forced into that role. However within my generation there is an uneasiness that this choice is being removed by philosophies and policies which elevate (and subsidise) the value of paid work over any other sort of social contribution.

Snog along with Buffy yay, Buffy's back I'd say that I've never heard anyone suggest that young women were responsible for everyday sexism experienced by all women.

Some of them play along with it, because it's safer for them to do that.
Some say it doesn't affect them for various reasons other women on the thread have mentioned.
Some ignore it and make disparaging and dismissive comments about other women, because they've seen that it works for men, so...

Doesn't stop those of us who understand how patriarchy works getting tired of the whataboutery that goes on.

Olivia, I think the fact that you would question that patriarchy exists is what posters were alluding to re your lack of credibility. It points to you not actually understanding what is meant by patriarchy, if you think people are referring to some kind of conspiracy. A PP already posted its actual meaning, are you trying to say that definition has no resemblance to the reality of our society?

My lack of credibility? Doesn't change the fact that feminism is so unpopular garlic.

BTW I wasn't taking the piss out of “The Patriarchy”. I was despairing of you for believing such a thing exists.

Let's not blame younger women for the sexism all women face every day.

To look at things more optimistically, surely the reality has always been that only a relatively small minority of women were prepared to call themselves feminists.

But you can bet that if the big advances that have been driven by feminism came under serious threat, there would be a much larger number of female voices raised in protest, and prepared to join together to take action.

Garlic, i agree. i think some of the extreme trans activists worries me, but then some of the extreme RadFems do too, lol.. i'm very much a liberal, middle of the road kind of person and i just want everyone to be allowed to get on with their lives... but i do believe that Trans people have a place in feminism, as much as i believe to leave anyone behind in Rights while making inroads for ourselves isn't fair.

On another note...

I think all young women should be made to sit down and watch 'Made in Dagenham'

I know its only a small example of what women went through to push for equal rights, but i think its recent enough that most of us can relate to it, and it might teach them something.

Part of me thinks its our generations job (those of us in the 25-45 bracket with small/growing kids) to make our kids aware of just how important the things our parents generation did are to our status quo, and also to raise a generation of young men who have respect for women and don't automatically think they have a right to treat women as property... unfortunately we're doing that in a generation of media and glamour where a persons looks are king. but i have hope in some as my DSD is 23 and very much a feminist (i've had some influence, lol) and often despairs at her friends and younger sisters attitudes!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Well, yeah, but not all men are like that.

Going back to an old post;
I had one early 20s work colleague tell me that all feminism has managed was to give women 2 jobs (paid and at home).

I've harrumphed about this myself more than once. Just shows how much we still need feminism so that women looking after home is not the default, or so that it becomes genuinely feasible to take a career break to raise children, IMO.

"non-men, not non-women of course! (Can't imagine the term non-women ever being used

Do you see the problem?

I do see the problem, so to be clear I don't view a feminist discussion that contains only women as lacking anything. My manner can be direct/blunt I guess, which could be taken as condescending, but that is never my intention. Unless it is.

(As an aside, and not taking a dig at anyone, and yes the suspicion is entirely understandable, but it would pretty neat if men could chime in without having to make the above clarification on a regular basis)

Garlick: I am "even" older than you and I thoroughly agree with you.

I was a teen in the 1950s so had to say "fuck it" to the housewife mentality, in the 60s I had to say double fuck it to the "you can't do this, you can't do that" mentality, in the 70s I said triple fuck it to the "you need a male guarantor for this and for that" mentality and so it went. Even with sex, once the Pill was available, and therefore boys/men thought the default response was yes to sex and gave you hell if it wasn't. My generation built on the work of the suffragettes and suffragists and like to think we had dragged society kicking and screaming into the modern age - at no little personal cost sometimes.

Oh, and I never fell for the lie that left wing meant gender equality. It never did. It still doesn't. Too much of a hive mentality.

I am so disappointed with the attitude of many of today's girls and young women and especially to standing up for themselves when it comes to sex. Some simply seem unable to accept that sometimes you need to make decisions that will make you unpopular and subject you to name-calling and lots of nasty reactions. Yes, the pressures are more extreme around sex, but I would argue no more extreme than the pressures our generation faced around marriage, work, careers, education, the home etc.

Sometimes you simply have to metaphorically stamp you feet and tell the world you don't give a shiny shit what they think.

I hesitate to say this because I know how quick the mantra of victim blaming arises as a response to criticism of women. I know I am generalising (nawalt) but I honestly believe that my generation of women - born and raised in or just after the war - was a hell of a lot tougher than than today's.

I would like to see a rebirth of that fuck it mentality. And one place to start is with this "non women" asinine crap. If you get called a TERF so what?

all i will say on the transgender issue in feminism, is that since my friend transitioned (full GRS) and moved job, she has been subject to EXACTLY the same kind of discrimination as every other female co-worker.

There isn't some kind of special ticket on her employment record that says 'used to be a man' that gets her privileged treatment.. like the higher rate of pay, or more promotion opportunities.

Once they go through transition and live as a woman, they are then just as much at risk of misogyny as those of us who are 'cis' for want of a better word.

A pp - Muskateersmummy - was saying (I will paraphrase) something about traditinal choices being undermined in feminism. I was lost from feminism at some point in my early 30s because I felt it was all about motherhood so that's interesting

There are a dozen different subgroups of feminism (though one could argue that not all of those are actually feminist), and it is probably possible that in the age before the internet, people's views of feminism were highly coloured by people they knew and books they had read.

Did you feel that it was all about motherhood because all feminists you knew were mothers? Or was it because it was all about protecting mothers from losing their jobs, etc?

I don't have children, and I still think motherhood is a feminist issue, because whether you want children or not, you will be discriminated against in the workplace because of the assumption that you might get pregnant at some point in time.

The fact that women CAN have children enables the males in power to direct sexist discrimination at us without outright stating that the purpose is to oppress women. Terrible working conditions for midwives? Just a part of the medical sector, nothing to do with HALF OF THE POPULATION being put at risk. Making abortions illegal? Nuns don't need them, so, not misogynist!

Reproduction is where patriarchal oppression starts and ends, it is central.

I am disappointed with the current modern feminism. Too many people seem to be scared of words, not enough people are willing to get out from behind their computers and actually do something. When I see the complaint about STEM from people who could of taken those degrees but instead chose Gender Studies, if DD can do it so can anyone with a modicum of intelligence and a willingness to do rather than talk. I had a career but elected to stay at home for my children. I now give 30 hours a week to charity one being FGM, the other fair trade and how to include women in the distribution of funds from fair trade contracts. What annoys me is how few people are willing to even give 5 hours a week.

We will disagree over sex work, the more I read from Amnesty and WHO the more I doubt that the Nordic model is the best to protect women. But I remember seeing strippers being called Gender Traitors on these boards about 4 years ago and that stuck with me how we can slut shame and ignore whole sections of people who choose to work in various sex trades. It is too easy to pretend that the loud voices are some pimp lobby that spends billions defending the trade. The truth is we have become intellectually dishonest, from believing that the average age of when women enter prostitution is 13 (in fact the research only interviewed under 16s so the answer was never going to be higher than 16) to the claim that the average street worker dies around age 34 which was based only on murder victims and does not include anyone who is/was alive when the study was done. If we have to bend the facts to create a truth then the truth no longer holds value for me.

Precisely, Derval, I lurk and read a lot but hope that I keep out of discussions which require extensive experience of being female to form a sensible opinion on, or really anything on which I am uninformed. I would hope to be called out when I overstep that.

I think feminism is shunned in subtle ways. I see a lot of it on here. The debate about keeping one's child off sick springs to mind. Working women still see themselves as the main childcare, whether they work or not and they still feel they have a point to prove to employers as viable employees and so shouldn't request flexibility and yet flexibility is sometimes required from all walks of life for a multitude of reasons. The fact that the thread was deleted speaks volumes as to how our attitudes are polarised even amongst ourselves, never mind bringing men into the equation.

I get the feeling of utter despair and I'm 35! I actually find coming to lurk on MN Femism Chat is usually a boost - I love reading the opinions of those better read, more experienced and so brilliantly clear of thought. They help me work my way around issues and get my thinking straight. I think we need those voices and we're going to need them even more so in the near future.