Female jealousy?

Agree with all MrsBoDuke has said.

I think it is very dismissive of children to reduce this situation and the outcome to 'he was just jealous' or some other trite explanation.

I believe that leads to children feeling even more insecure, that bullying happens completely randomly with no possible explanation at all. How can children ever think about how to perhaps avoid it in the future if it results purely from being 'pretty' or 'clever' or because you live in a house full of books? Things that children can't change and so means they will forever be at risk of being harmed?

This in no way condones the bully or the harm they cause. However I believe it is more helpful for children to also think about their own actions in the situation. Were they teasing the child in question, did they mock them or ignore them or side against them? Why was the child so angry with them in the first place? Is there anything the bullied child feels they could have done differently [in the future as the bullying will mean this situation has gone beyond that point and the bullied child is not responsible for the bully's behaviour, only their own]. Or is the child who is being bullied timid or their 'difference' makes them a target? In which case parents and school will need to intervene to support them.

Then how can the bullied chid recognise the potential warning signs for next time, if there are any? How could they possibly manage the situation next time, i.e. get themselves to a safe place, speak to a trusted teacher, parent or other significant adult. Can the adults help the child to put a plan of action in place if this situation occurs again?

Finally parents need to think about healing and resolution. for example through continued talking it through or support from a professional counsellor. The child needs to know that something will be done about the bullying behaviour and that they will be believed. It might be helpful for them to be involved in drawing up the 'plan of action' and thus taking back some control of the situation.

But not just reducing the situation to 'I was pretty and clever' and that's all there is to it. I think this leaves unresolved feelings and hurt with nowhere to go with them.

Lass, I was describing how I handled a specific situation wrt a violent attack on my son.
So savage & with so much blood that the whole class had to be counselled, including the teacher.
My son had to have brain scans, X-rays, and get his head stapled back together.

By all means make that all about you again, but don't undermine the aftermath, whereby with the help of a counsellor we were able to identify the chain of events and help my son to make some sense' of 'why?' for his mental well being and future.

Had we reduced it to 'he was jealous' or minimised, ignored or glossed over the lead up that the attacker had to get to that point on that day then that would have been failing my son in the long run.

But I did make damned sure he realised that although it wasn't 'his fault' that it happened, these things don't happen in a vacuum and as such he had to acknowledge how his actions leading up to it had contributed to the incident occurring in the first place

Oh dear me. Is being black or gay or having a speech impediment or coming from a family that is a bit different or all the countless reasons bullies find "actions which contribute to the incident " ?

Wrt freyapop I've got to be honest, from my own personal experiences I have found this to be true. I've found rudeness, bullying and passive aggressive little digs are more often than not motivated by feelings of jealousy.

I've been mulling further...

These things can throw me into some soul-searching, and often think for me it can be about someone holding a grudge because I have not behaved as they wished eg- my introverted ways mean I don't want to hang out as much as they'd like, or perhaps I haven't observed their standard of good manners. Or sometimes they want me to make the choices they would and feel annoyed about my conviction in my own free will. I don't think it is jealousy in the main - more about control and (passive-aggressive) dominance.

It happened over a year ago, he was over it pretty quickly tbh.
Thankfully he had access to a school counsellor etc and both me & my husband are quite pragmatic types (especially in a crisis).
He had a terrible time for a few weeks and ended up sleeping in my bed for a while again with nightmares, but he's totally fine now.

Although I hold the other boy absolutely responsible for his actions, I worked with my son to try to understand how it is a chain of events that leads to an outcome - the other boy did a terrible thing, but it didn't happen in a vacuum.
It was very, very difficult to do that whilst at the same time ensuring that my son didn't blame himself for what happened.

It's fine now though, thank goodness, but as I said before it was a valuable lesson in how unexpected and awful life can be, and how he needs to be aware of how his actions can affect and impact on others.

Poor thing! I still feel differently. Imo that attack was completely unexpected - since disagreements happen all the time without someone pulling out the hammer. I also think the boy on the AS isn't entirely responsible either because of his condition. It could maybe be a chance for your son to learn how to recognise signs of someone who is about to snap - something he couldn't have known before, but I doubt the 'things don't happen in a vacuum' comment is very helpful and might piss your son off for some years to come.

He was hit in the head twice with a hammer in a lesson at school - the only reason it wasn't more was that a teacher managed to drag the other boy off him.
He was 100% a victim.

The boy that attacked him was subsequently diagnosed as being high functioning on the autistic spectrum.
The boy had been bullied a bit by his brother for being 'weird'. He had been picked on quite a lot by others at school in the months/years before.
My son was one of his friends and always stood up for him.
The day before and the day it happened my son and his friend had been rubbing each other up the wrong way (as happens in all friendships at some points).
That particular day, the boy snapped - about 10 mins after him & my son had a small verbal disagreement (not even a proper argument), he grabbed a hammer in the DT classroom and started attacking my son.
My son just happened to be the final straw for this boy - it was a 'wrong place, wrong time' moment.

So no, squirrel, it is not necessarily one thing or the other.
My son was 100% not to blame for what was done to him, but he also had control and choice over his actions too - he could have walked away from the stupid disagreement, he could have walked away from the escalating annoyances the day before, but he didn't.
It was a valuable life lesson to learn that life isn't black & white - it is a series of events - things do not happen in a vacuum and rarely are completely and totally unexpected or unprovoked.

It's probably specific to the situation. . But surely either you son was partly culpable in the situation and could have behaved differently or he was 100% the victim and there was nothing he could have done?

My son was absolutely 100% a victim.

But in that particular situation it was a valuable life lesson to learn that you have to be aware of how your own actions may impact on those around you.

It was not a sibling affair, it was a boy at school (a friend of his actually, although obviously not a friend now).

although it wasn't 'his fault' that it happened, these things don't happen in a vacuum and as such he had to acknowledge how his actions leading up to it had contributed to the incident occurring in the first place.

I'm not with you on this one. Some kids bully younger siblings because they don't want to share their parents (jealous of this relationship).... a baby can't help being born. Sometimes simply existing is enough to incur victimisation and there's not always something different a victim could have done.

There you go then Lass, mutual dislike on both sides.
That's fine.
Some people like each other, some don't.

And fwiw, I would actually say to a bullied person 'sometimes people just don't like each other' (in fact, I've said much the same thing to my kids actually).
It takes any drama, emotion, or self doubt out of an emotional situation and reduces it to fact.
That doesn't mean that I 'condone' bullying, I don't, I challenge bullying whenever I see it - I can't abide the pack mentality of bullying either and always challenge that too.

At school last year, my son was attacked with a hammer - had to have his head stapled back together.
Did he deserve it? No.
Did he 'ask for it'? No.
Was it wholly and entirely, 100% the choice of the person that picked up the hammer and hit him with it? Yes
Was his attacker 100% responsible for their actions? Yes.

But I did make damned sure he realised that although it wasn't 'his fault' that it happened, these things don't happen in a vacuum and as such he had to acknowledge how his actions leading up to it had contributed to the incident occurring in the first place.

I don't think it's a consensus, I think it's a point that we are exploring.

I agree with PinkINdustry - I think it's interesting how keen people are (on many threads, not just this one) to see a "consensus" of people against them. When in reality many different opinions and thoughts have been expressed.

I've found rudeness, bullying and passive aggressive little digs are more often than not motivated by feelings of jealousy.

Even if this is the case, I think it can be silencing for someone to come forward with this as an explanation before hearing the issue out. My mum does this almost accompanied by a dismissive wave of the hand. She might as well say 'go tell someone who gives a shit, whiner'.

I just suggested that there may have been more to it than 'you existed' is all.

The basis of most school bullying is little more than that. Try telling a bullied child "oh it's just that sometimes people don't like you"

The victim is there and is perceived as different by the people doing the bullying. The victim rarely, if at all, has to do anything.

You are getting very close to condoning bullying with comments like sometimes people don't like you or there may be more to it.

Why you are so determined that jealousy can't be a factor escapes me.

I don't know you either. I don't recognise your username but I find your tone and posts very irritating too.

I've got to be honest, from my own personal experiences I have found this to be true. I've found rudeness, bullying and passive aggressive little digs are more often than not motivated by feelings of jealousy. Obviously I can't know for sure but I feel that I know my friends very well and know what triggers them and I can just tell.
However I definitely don't think it's just women. Men are the same in my opinion!

Anna dale I just saw this
A mother saying 'they are just jealous of you darling because you are so pretty' is informing her she should feel pity of other people rather than anger at how she is being treated. Pity is an emotion you feel when you are quite calm - it's not a very nice emotion either but it is easier to 'handle' people who are feeling it than people who are feeling anger. God forbid that a bullied attractive child should fight back, or make a formal complaint, or cause trouble of some kind - better for her to reorder her emotions internally.

This is so true - a feeling we should pity and forgive our aggressors - I never thought of 'they're just jealous' as a self-oppressing 'don't make an unlady-like fuss'... wow!

*Your comment "Perhaps it wasn't just 'that you existed' that meant people didn't like you? Perhaps there were other reasons?
Things don't generally happen in a vacuum" is getting quite close to victim blaming.

I did absolutely nothing to these girls and was verbally and physically bullied by them and you are trying to suggest there was a reason or justification for it.*

It is not 'victim blaming' to acknowledge that sometimes people just don't like other people.
I didn't once condone bullying.
I just suggested that there may have been more to it than 'you existed' is all.

I didn't try to justify bullying, you've extrapolated that from my post.

Please don't try to paint yourself as my victim now, as I said I don't know you or anything about you other than the posts on this thread - and on this thread I find your tone superior & irritating.

The fact I existed was enough for the school bullies.
Bullying is a weird dynamic because it helps a group to bond by other othering and victimising someone. They choose all sorts of victims - often because they are non-threatening eg- physically slight, bookish, vulnerable because of illness, bereavement,etc. The 'jealous' component enables bullies to vent frustration about structural inequality at the same time.

But in this thread, it is about a broader issue than group bullying. The op seems to suggest that female behaviours can be wrongly attributed to jealousy and when males act jealously it is often wrongly attributed to something else.

Also there's a sense that women can be fobbed off with the 'just jealous' explanation of bad behaviour, when it would be respectful to give the situation deeper thought - because the facile assumption of other people being jealous of us may boost our ego temporarily but is unlikely to make it all okay again.

The concensus here seems to be "oh dear how terribly sexist to say that appalling conduct by women might be motivated by jealousy"

I don't think it's a consensus, I think it's a point that we are exploring. It's something that the OP has heard, and that others on here are saying they have heard a lot, being applied to women and we are exploring why it might be that we hear that more about women than men. Some have then analysed whether or not that says something deeper about women's experiences in our society and how women are viewed in our society because, well, it's a feminist forum. Of course, others on the thread have even said that it is not something they have heard at all or that in fact, they have heard this being related to men as well. So it's a concept that we are exploring and analysing, it's not a consensus at all.

I do agree that lots of nasty behaviour/bullying stems from jealousy

Yes. As for MrsBo's comment- personal anecdotes seem to be welcome on here as long as they support the concensus. The concensus here seems to be "oh dear how terribly sexist to say that appalling conduct by women might be motivated by jealousy"

Your comment "Perhaps it wasn't just 'that you existed' that meant people didn't like you? Perhaps there were other reasons?
Things don't generally happen in a vacuum" is getting quite close to victim blaming.

I did absolutely nothing to these girls and was verbally and physically bullied by them and you are trying to suggest there was a reason or justification for it.

Squirrel used more grownup words than me - "structural inequality" is probably what I was trying to get at there.

Sometimes people perceive others as feeling superior to them or 'looking down nose' at them when this is not the case.

Agree Pam.

Do you get the feeling that we live in a society where women are set against each other?

Female jealousy is a consequence you would expect when we are taught to believe that there is a limited amount of "stuff" around and that we have to compete against one another for it.

Somehow we are not in competition with men in the same way - maybe because we are not allowed "men's stuff", it is not for us.

The "stuff" in question could be respect or attention or friendship or money or jobs or romantic partners or all kinds of other things.

Men are just as jealous women. Fact