The city that allows women to sell sex

I'm not sure on this. I don't think of street walkers as sex workers. I think of them as vulnerable addicts turning tricks. They need more support. I'm all for them having a "safe zone" but I don't think this should be seen as a festive "red light district."

When I say grow up. What I mean is: no matter how much we try to police peoples sexual desires and their needs. Lust and the need for other people bodies for sexual fulfilment, will always find a way. Regardless of what you and I, or the mayor of Amsterdam says or thinks. We need to accept that and instead of punishing people for practising it. Both buyers and sellers need to be protected and we need to make sure (as must we can() that they come to no harm. I believe we'll be better able to do this is prostitution is out in the open, accepted and managed as best as humanly possible.

This is long, sorry but if you are interested you can Google 'how New Zealand prostitution laws actually hurt women' you will get a document called "Does Legalizing Prostitution Protect Women and Girls?"

The first bit says...

"DOES LEGALIZING PROSTITUTION PROTECT
WOMEN AND GIRLS?

Findings from countries and states where prostitution is legal
Millions of women and girls around the world are exploited in the commercial sex industry (i.e. the buying and selling of sex), which is often the end destination of sex trafficking. While human rights activists, government officials and the United Nations all agree that the trafficking of women and girls for prostitution is a serious – and growing – problem, there is disagreement as to the best way to prevent trafficking and exploitation. Some believe that targeting the demand for commercial sex that fuels sex trafficking while decriminalizing those exploited in prostitution is the most effective way to curb sex trafficking, while others argue that legalizing or decriminalizing the commercial sex industry is the best way to weed out and prevent exploitation and trafficking.

The legalization of prostitution includes legalizing the activities involved in and surrounding prostitution, and often imposing regulations specific to the sex industry. Countries and states that have legalized prostitution include: Senegal (1969), states in Australia including Victoria (1994) and Queensland (1999), the Netherlands (2000) and Germany (2002).

The decriminalization of prostitution includes repealing all laws or provisions against prostitution, and not imposing prostitution-specific regulations. Countries and states that have decriminalized prostitution include the Australian state of New South Wales (1995), and New Zealand (2003).
SEX TRAFFICKING AND EXPLOITATION OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN

 NETHERLANDS: In 2003, the Amsterdam Mayor stated that legalization had failed to prevent trafficking, saying “it appeared impossible to create a safe and controllable zone for women that was not open to abuse by organised crime.”i In 2007, a government report noted that “pimps [i.e. traffickers] are still a very common phenomenon.”ii

 NEW SOUTH WALES (AUSTRALIA): One police officer who investigates sex trafficking commented on the effects of decriminalization: “Although the intention was to provide a safe working environment for sex workers the reverse has occurred in that pimps and brothel operators were empowered and enriched.”iii

 NEW ZEALAND: The government noted that the law that decriminalized prostitution “cannot in itself prevent or address the causes of under age prostitution.”iv The National Council of Women of New Zealand, which originally supported decriminalization, expressed their concern that “we are still seeing girls as young as 13 and 14 on the streets selling their bodies,” and that men arrested for buying sex from minors are receiving light sentences under the law.v"

I won't paste any more of it in but you can see just from the introduction that legalising prostitution does not necessarily empower women or make things safer!!!

Olivia what is grown up about assuming women will always be so strapped for cash they need to sell access to their bodies and men will always want to pay women for sex? It's not always in dirty little corner, sometimes it is out in the open, doesn't make it any less dirty to me. There are loads of things in society that re horrible and seem inevitable, as a society we could decide what is acceptable and what is unacceptable.

This sentence....
"Underpinning laws that legalise prostitution is the belief that prostitution is inevitable."... comes from this article, please read it is you are thinking of advocating for legislation about prostitution....

www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/the_real_harms_of_prostitution

Please note this quote... "As Amsterdam began shutting down its legal brothels a few years ago, Mayor Job Cohen acknowledged that the Dutch had been wrong about legal prostitution. It did not make prostitution safer. Instead, he said, legal prostitution increased organised crime. It functioned like a magnet for pimps and punters. Trafficking increased after legal prostitution—80 per cent of women in Dutch prostitution have been trafficked".

You dont like it OP, neither do it particularly, but it will always be with us.

We need to manage and regulate it. Keep sex workers safe, and punters safe from violent rip- off criminals/pimps. I believe this is more achievable if we just grow up about it. Stop trying to hide it away in dirty little corners of our cities.

The fact we as a society want to sanitise prostitution and make it look acceptable seems very nice on the surface but I think it leads to more women entering prostitution, and selling sex seems to be an awful way to make a living. I am in favour of the Scandinavian model, where the Johns are criminalised not the women.

I would recommend going to an official red light district to see the difference. Women are not harassed on the streets, possibly because the rules are clear.

Prostitution is legal in Australia and New Zealand, operated from brothels. There is a brothel a few minutes drive from where I live, after the local primary school but before the church, next to one of the three big supermarkets in the area, opposite houses and flats and a great little restaurant. Nothing special happens on the streets that would not conceivably happen on any street. Its a nice neighbourhood and did not change at all when the brothel appeared about 5 years ago. Its not labelled as a brothel of course, they never are, this one just specifies 'massage' with a locked front door and an 'open' sign. Apparently 'code' for people who want sexual services and look for the back entrance.

Many thousands of people go past it every day, men, women, children, elderly on mobility transport. Only a small proportion of people would know for certain what it was, a higher proportion might suspect its a brothel but not care and for the bulk of people its just a place they walk or drive past on their way to somewhere else. It, and its activities, are invisible to the wider community.

I used to park in that area in Leeds because it's one of the few places with cheap parking near me (rest is upwards of £8 a day which gets very costly).

I stopped parking there since being kerb crawled a number of times whilst walking back to my car, a couple of times the guys did not stopping harassing me until I actually got in my vehicle. Luckily these both happened in daylight but it still made me feel very uneasy and I found a permanent paid for space before the nights got too dark.

What I found most upsetting though was seeing these women, who frequently were drunk or on drugs and looked so vulnerable. It felt like they were being betrayed by society. I can't really find the words to articulate it, but I think so many people support the industry because "it's the woman's choice and should be respected" but to call it choice just seems so hollow and false.

I've heard someone say that no woman wants an abortion like she wants a new car, or new shoes. Women want abortions like foxes caught in a trap want to chew off their legs - it's necessary to get to the end goal, not a choice in itself. That's what I saw when I saw these women and it really coloured my world view to think that society were so complicit in it.

I don't know, I'm not very good at writing it out. I would say though that there were some fantastic people manning support booths for those women on a nightly basis who felt like the only people who gave a damn.

I certainly was not comparing the two. Amsterdam was used as an example of a controlled sex industry that appears safe.

The Amsterdam district really is very different from the Leeds district.

What Leeds has done is choose an industrial estate for a zone of tolerance so that the street walking scene can be more easily policed and the amount of public nuisance reduced. But the women don't need to register for a place or anything. Getting a window in Amsterdam is difficult and expensive.

Street walkers are exceptionally vulnerable - almost all sex work has moved indoors. Those who work on the street are the ones unable to access the Internet or don't have any place to work indoors. I suspect that the vast majority of them wouldn't prostitute if they didn't have other issues compelling them to do it.

Most punters in the UK know this and they avoid the street workers because it's too grim and seedy. I suspect that the ones who kerb crawl are attracted to the seediness and the vulnerability of the women.

However, I don't know that for a fact. I don't interact with any of them.

Holbeck just cannot be compared with Amsterdam!!!!

I never used to go out on the streets in Holbeck at night when I lived there. This whole idea of a controlled red light district would be easier to defend if all the women weren't clearly on something.

"When my local area war an 'unofficial red light district' I would get curb crawled"

I would recommend going to an official red light district to see the difference. Women are not harassed on the streets, possibly because the rules are clear.

Yes, prostitues are inside in Amsterdam, steps away from (if not in) the bedroom. That takes the sex off the streets and lets these women stay in their chosen zone of safety.

Amsterdam is a perfect real-life example of a "city that allows women to sell sex", which is the title of this thread. It is very relevant to the discussion & the opposite of a red herring.

in Amsterdam is it on street prostitution? I always got the impression it was indoors

Indoors , with the women sitting in windows. I think Amsterdam is a bit of a red herring in this discussion. I don't know what the area is like at night but during the day it's a busy tourist area, you will see men, women, couples even with children in it.

Can I make it clear that although I agree Amsterdam 's red light district is not dangerous or scary I do not in any way support the legalisation / decriminalisation of prostitution. Amsterdam is one of my favourite cities and I go there a lot, but I'd like it even more if the red light district was closed down.

I also understand the Amsterdam authorities are less sanguine about it these days too. There has been a closing of many of the windows and encouragement of other businesses to take up spaces.

whatsupwithamsterdam.com/red-light-district/

www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/8961513/Amsterdam-an-end-to-the-red-light-district.html

The Leeds area is to be imminently redeveloped/gentrified, so the legal area's days are numbered.

Hahaha! I thought they made an epic typo! Well, you learn something new everyday - thanks for explaining.

Really, they choose to do it as a job? I'm not judging them, I don't see them any less than any other person making a living. I just struggle to understand having sex with a stranger and being paid for it. It's too much of a business transaction whilst I'm conditioned to have an emotional connection to actually be able to have sex with someone to enjoy it - and that's the reason I do it. Each to their own!

I would be nervous to question a worker in case they took offence! Very interested to here more about your study however if you were happy to share?

What made them decide they wanted to do sex work?

Yes, "illegal alien" is used in this context to describe people of other nationalities who are working illegally in the Netherlands. See alien.

That wasn't about UFOs

I did a survey of Amsterdam prostitutes some years ago and talked to quite a few of them. All were there voluntarily, and not because their children were hungry.

I would really recommend approaching a couple of prostitutes in the daytime (when they are not busy) and having a chat if you want to know what really goes on in the Red Light District.

I don't find the regulation bizarre per se. I actually support it if it keeps people safe.

Are 'aliens' illegal immigrants? I'm being ignorant here so apologies!

"Under the monitoring section there is a sentence that includes illegal aliens. Am I missing something??"

What is it that you find bizarre? It is a legal profession so they are subject to the laws that say who can work in the Netherlands.

I was never offered drugs but I think there are drug pushers in most major cities with a night life. After the deaths of tourist following that rogue batch of cocaine (was heroin) there were signs everywhere to warn tourist.

Buying drugs is a choice and the user must understand the risks. I don't really understand the comparison with sex workers. It might be a choice too but in a different context. I would sell my body and steal to provide for my child, it's not something to be proud of but it happens and will continue.

Presumably you said "No" and they went away? That wasn't quite what I meant by "scary" and it's definitely not "sexual harassment" as mentioned in the OP.

But this controlled zone is deemed legal but a year in a woman has been murdered. It all seems (to me) to be unmanaged and still unsafe.

This is an interesting read on Amsterdams sex trade regs -

www.amsterdam.info/prostitution/

Under the monitoring section there is a sentence that includes illegal aliens. Am I missing something??