The city that allows women to sell sex

When people ask these types of questions don’t they think of all the lines of work they themselves would 'mind' their own kids going into? There are all manner of shit and dangerous jobs I can think of

There are many jobs which are dangerous and difficult. The obvious ones are the armed services and the emergency services , but also less obvious ones , say social work, animal welfare. I might worry about my son if he picked any of them but I 'd be very proud of him if he did. And I'd probably bore people rigid telling them about him.

There are on the other hand plenty of superficially "shit" jobs .I'm not going to insult anyone by listing them because when you think about them , they might not be glamorous or well paid or afford hero status but if no one did them we'd soon notice and be the worse for them. If my son were doing them no, I would not mind.

I can't actually think of any job I would "mind" if he did other than I'm afraid yours which I would mind a great deal.

I'd mind because I do not think it would be good for him and I would not want anyone to know.

Massive would you mind if your children became prostitutes?

When people ask these types of questions don’t they think of all the lines of work they themselves would 'mind' their own kids going into? There are all manner of shit and dangerous jobs I can think of, and prostitution is certainly one of them. I would worry about their ongoing health, potential for harm and psychological impacts. A large part of my worries, for many lines of work, would be connected to the legality and social oversight/framework/attitude to the work they do.

1,000s of men, or a number of men thousands or times?

It does sound grim.

Massive would you mind if your children became prostitutes?

Yes, we're having sex with thousands of men.

Again, I"m only speaking for myself and women like me.

I don't have sex with non-stop men. 10-20 a week, 45 or so weeks a year. My friends do more or less than me depending on what they want to do.

I've had sex with thousands of men. But I am still able to enjoy sex. I have orgasms. I can love someone. I love my children. I enjoy hobbies, etc. I am honestly exactly like everyone else - I just don't at all mind having sex with strangers for money.

So Massive that must mean that each woman is sleeping with a massive amount of men if quite a few prostitutes have boyfriends who were once clients and lots of men want to be prostitutes's boyfriends and prostitutes are very un-keen on turning a client into a boyfriend. If I have got the maths right?

To explain the "arithmetic" - there are a lot of clients who would like to become lovers. 99.99% of the time we're not having it. But 99.99% of a thousand still leaves one. So, it does happen that a prostitute meets a client and there's a genuine connection that moves into a real relationship. Four of my five closest prostitute friends are in relationships with men they met as clients.

Thanks for the answers. That's interesting. Something I've always wondered as I am (and would be) totally unable to have sex without emotional involvement.

One of the most interesting answers though on threads about prostitution is what Ophelia says i.e.

I would never in a million years want my children to live a life like mine though iykwim. I worry for them.

That speaks volumes about the sex trade.

Massive can I just say I do not mean these comments unkindly or in an insulting way, you are your own person and you've made your choices. I am sorry if my comments sound personal, I guess I should make them generally. Not personally.

I do not think prostitution is a choice any woman (girl, boy, man) should ever have to make.

Massive re "It's not uncommon for the partner to be a former client. (Although it's extremely rare for clients to turn into lovers. I don't know if that arithmetic makes any sense.)" It doesn't you've just said two opposite things.

You make it all sound so normal. That I think is the very sad part to me, it is accepting as normal what is not. I'm glad it doesn't bother you, because if it did, it would be crushing.

It's so hard to explain...

try to think of it as a sexual orientation. There are people who can have sex - even enjoy sex - that is utterly without any emotional connection.

I think that some women who enter prostitution are of this orientation but they can fall under the control of other parties who seem to facilitate sexwork but impinge on the prostitute's autonomy. And she can end up miserable. I have posted before on other threads how I might, under certain circumstances, tolerate what you would call a "pimp." My friends who no longer work at massage parlours quit for a reason - they didn't like the rules and the relative lack of autonomy they can have as an independent. But they were content with the situation at the time.

Swings and roundabouts.

Grimbletart, in my experience and based on what my friends say - it is the opposite. It's like any other sex life between committed partners and generally where the prostitute gets to relax and connect on an emotional level.

I don't know why we'd bother having meaningless, conveyer-belt sex for free.

The partners are able to "get it" and accept how we are. It's not uncommon for the partner to be a former client. (Although it's extremely rare for clients to turn into lovers. I don't know if that arithmetic makes any sense.)

Grimbletart It is very very different. For a start, you are sexually attracted to your parner and you love them. A job is a job. It's your job to fake it

I'm thinking back to my late 20's when I returned to the industry after a long break, and I was with the most amazing man. He was an artist, I was sleeping on a sofa-bed in the back of his art studio (basically a step up from homeless) surrounded by his work and I was obsessed with him. And sexually obsessed with him. He was like a magnificent God to me.

We had started a relationship and had been having the most incredible sex, when I returned to the industry. I tried to keep it from him, but it didn't work! Anyway he accepted it, and we continued a relationship for a good few years (needless to say doomed to fail!) But I only orgasmed with him and only properly enjoyed sex when it was with him.

There's a sort of particular head-space you enter into on a job. Not all women are capable of it.

DP and I met on the party scene. We do sex parties together. He manages the web side. We do couples public show, we watch each other play with others, we are in it together.
Then when we are alone it is so intimate, so loving, and our tastes are very personal, it's another feeling entirely. We have a family too and our household is very loving.

I would never in a million years want my children to live a life like mine though iykwim. I worry for them.

I do know WGs who keep it from their partner. A few say they are stripping/dancing. There is sometimes an admission like "Oh my God I did it just like a job with my husband" etc... So yes, probably it can happen sometimes, that you treat it like yet another shag.

I've always wondered how prostitutes with partners or husbands manage their sex lives with their loved one - and how their partners see it.

If sex is reduced to a bodily function performed with hundreds of strangers and for some on a par with factory work, according to Massive, what does that do to 'making love' with their partner? After all, he might just be number 20 on the daily conveyor belt of meaningless sex divorced from any emotion or feeling.

For some prostitutes - I don't know how many, but certainly my friends - it really is "just" sex. A couple of girls I know who worked at busy parlours before going independent likened it to factory work: "Hard on the body, easy on the mind" That is, they would go home knackered - because a busy parlour can mean non-stop sex - but it didn't trouble them mentally.

For some of us, sex with strangers is really no big deal. Sex with unpleasant people can be unpleasant. Not all clients are pleasant. But most are. And we don't mind having sex with them. We put a lot of effort into screening out the unpleasant ones. That's where the phone/email/text bit becomes the most tedious. It's the primary drain on my mood and energy.

Not being able to screen out clients because you don't have autonomy or you're in a desperate situation or working outdoors where the only option is to get into a stranger's car... that would be miserable. I'm fully prepared to believe that those women are in a perilous situation and are not happy.

Massivestrumpet it was not me who said "This is the most horrifying sentence I have ever read on Mumsnet."

What I said was "I think the fact you don't find it upsetting is actually very sad. I don't mean to be offensive but I find this quite depressing and I also feel it is probably very unrepresentative of the experiences of prostitutes." Or words to that effect.

Because I do feel sad that any woman would live her life having sex with men for money. It seems a very destructive thing to do; in many ways. Destructive to self and also within society, to in some way contribute to the idea that women are objects that can be used in this way.

Re "Have you read the Relationships board? That's where I frequently see the most hair-raising posts about physical, emotional and financial abuse. There have been posts on there that kept me up at night. "

Yes, I have read them and they are terribly sad and make me very angry. Any abuse of anyone, male or female, by anyone, male or female, makes me upset and angry. And it is usually men who are abusing women.

And although I do not lay the blame of this abuse at anyone's door except the men who do this, I do feel that being part of a 'sex industry' that promotes the idea of women as commodities, where access to their bodies can be bought for cash, is 'unhelpful' to the wider population of women (and men).

"... something they consider inevitable." I think it is a terrible shame that so many see this as inevitable. I can't believe that any children growing up who first find out about sex (and love, and relationships) would really want to be the ones buying sex or selling sex! But somewhere in between those times and adulthood it becomes 'inevitable'. I don't believe it is so, and I won't join in the lie things cannot change. Whether they will change or not will be up to the next generation. I will do my best to bring up my son and daughter to not consider that sexual access to anyone's body should be bought or sold.

Totally agree with Somedyke re "Either way, the issue is male entitlement to the bodies of women, whether they have 'rented' them temporarily as in prostitution, or 'casually' as in I-bought-you-dinner-didn't-I, or more 'permanently' as in marriage until very recently."

just, just agree with sillage too.

Do you think all social science research is too hopelessly flawed by design to be of any practical use to anyone anywhere, or just social science research on prostitution?

"I've never said it's "easy money."

I'm quite sure you did.

Saying that rude phone calls are "the hardest" part of prostitution is saying that prostitution is easy money.

This is you saying that prostitution is easy money:

"Some girls work in parlours because they JUST want to show up for a day and make a wad of cash and go home for a week and not think about it any more...They're JUST going to knock out 15 bookings in a shift at 40 a go and they'll go home happy."

just just make wad of cash
just just not think about it anymore
just just go home happy

These are the lies men believe about the prostitutes they abuse. These are the lies young and desperate girls believe when they need money and have no other way to get it.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3547556/An-ex-prostitute-shares-scathing-open-letter-former-clients.html

Yes, I know it's the Daily Mail, but I think this might be a bit of an eye-opener to men who use the services of prostitutes or pornography.

"I'm not arguing that marriage is to be compared to prostitution."

Just to point out that marital rape in the UK was only classed as a crime in 1991. In Denmark, it wasn't until 2013 that lessening or total remittance of punishment for sexual violence within marriage was removed. These laws weren't accidents, and feminists had been campaigning since the beginning of the 19th century, so only took two hundred years for many (but still not all) societies to recognise marital rape as rape.

In effect, the point was women were considered to have granted all rights to their body to their husband on marriage. Viewed in this way, at least prostitution only grants such rights temporarily.

Either way, the issue is male entitlement to the bodies of women, whether they have 'rented' them temporarily as in prostitution, or 'casually' as in I-bought-you-dinner-didn't-I, or more 'permanently' as in marriage until very recently.

Going back to what ItalianGreyhound said above about my post being the most horrifying thing she's ever read on Mumsnet...

Have you read the Relationships board? That's where I frequently see the most hair-raising posts about physical, emotional and financial abuse. There have been posts on there that kept me up at night.

I'm not arguing that marriage is to be compared to prostitution. I'm just thinking it's odd that someone saying very matter of factly that there are women who can have sex with thousands of men and not mind it is more horrifying than posts from women who are ground down and abused in their own homes by someone intimate to them.

At any rate: this thread is originally about street prostitution and I do believe that those women are vulnerable. I doubt that many of them are happy with prostitution. I do not know what the best way to deal with it is. Leeds won't be the first city to tolerate a specific "red light district" in an effort to try and police the worst aspects of something they consider inevitable. It's a real conundrum and I don't know what the best response to the immediate problem is.

Sillage, I am unable to say because I am not in a position to collect anything but anecdata and that anecdata is primarily women like myself.

I don't think you can get a truly representative sample. Often what I will see is samples like:

1. Stats from law enforcement... dealing with the most vulnerable people who have somehow come into contact with law enforcement.

1. Self-reported surveys that use the Internet to find prostitutes who want to voluntarily answer questionnaires (this means finding women like me, but not the most vulnerable people.)

I know that there are a LOT of women like me. I know a great many of them personally. I don't know what percentage of UK prostitutes we are.

I've never said it's "easy money." It's work. I prefer this sort of work to the options available to me and I am generally happy with my income. If a complete newbie came to me and asked me to help her get started I would have grave reservations as I consider this job to be not suited to everyone. There is a steep learning curve and newbies get fucked with until they learn (sometimes the hard way) how to avoid getting fucked with.

However, for some women - certainly many of my friends - the job isn't as odious as you all assume. We like some clients more than others. Many of us have orgasms and enjoy ourselves at least with some clients. Most of us find that the hardest part is dealing with the men we do NOT see (that is, screening out the idiots.)

"I'm unable to say what is representative of most prostitutes in our culture."

You are able to say, you just won't.

Research done in 3/4 of Planet Earth's countries on prostitution aggregated the words of thousands of prostituted people, and that's representative of most prostitutes in our culture. Those thousands of voices disagree with you vehemently about prostitution being "easy money".

The piles of prostituted bodies that men leave speaks for itself when the former inhabitants can no longer speak for themselves, and they speak louder than anything you write on the internet about being numb to the sex that men who despise you have on your body.

0phelia of course I am glad that your experiences are not as extreme as the ones of the women in the article. I am glad if those things are not so common here.

MassiveStrumpet I am glad you have not been abused or molested or raped.

I am very sad this is presented as the only option for some women who want to earn money.

I am very sad women feel ambitious to do this.

The hardest part of my job is the phone and texts. The bookings themselves are really no big deal. Nobody is awful to me. No violence or anything like that. But I have to answer calls from idiots all day long. I turn a lot of men away. Often only because they have an accent I don't like or they call me "darling."

then on through legal established higher end brothels

If you are still referring to London there may be brothels there. I can't comment on whether they are "high end" or not but they are not legal

On the party scene I work with groups of women, the Brazilians, the Eastern Europeans, the African women, the Thais.... I can not for a second believe that every single one of these women have had bad traumatic abusive childhoods. I am confident that the reason they work is to escape poverty and send money home, and save up to buy a house back home.

Considering how sexual abuse of children is treated in Brazil (didn't they recently force an eight year old to give birth to what was likely her father's incestuous child?), I admit I would be surprised if none of them had had abusive childhoods. Same for African women, and Eastern European ... and well, we all know about Thailand - the government may not be exactly happy about the reputation, but apparently not enough measures are taken to change things.

Though I do think that once poverty gets really, really bad, that might be a factor, too. (I just don't think it would be for people who are citizens of countries where the government believes that people are entitled to food and a roof over their heads.)