Gendered clothing - grrr.

I used to wear mostly masculine clothing - about half from actual men's stores, half women's jeans, trousers, shoes. Worked fine while I was slim and flat- chested, but if I was out alone late at night people would shout abuse like "you look like a woman" - because they assumed I was a feminine-looking man, because women don't wander around alone at night...

Now breasts and hips make getting any clothes that fit hard, so I have to include female-aimed trousers and tops in my wardrobe. And the result is always a much more fitted, shape-hugging look.

If you think of men wearing stretchy tops, lycra, etc, the look is essentially "gay nightclub" - if you look at gay scenes or goth clubs you will see lots of men wearing a more 'feminine" look including some skirts, but both will be deemed unacceptable by lots of the general public.

Women's clothing is always going for smaller markets as it has to fit so many more varieties of shape, so it ends up more cheaply made for the same price. I could go for large baggy clothing to solve the problem of fluctuating shape but then would look inappropriate in an office - so as others have said, the only option is to spend significant effort on clothes-hunting. Or find a tailor, but I did that for one outfit and promptly got pregnant and never fit it again!

Enforced choice or choices that all come with muttering, isn't so great when the choice of an "unmarked" outfit isn't available. I'm tempted to solve the fitted problem with an abeya or similar, but that in the UK would hardly be an uncontroversial choice!

I do wear men's clothing on occasion: in particular hoodies, jumpers and trainers. I'm quite tall so most of the time, I struggle with dressing my upper half so men's clothing is ideal for me as I'm more comfortable than women's clothing.

If I'm honest, women's clothing brands must assume that every woman is average height! Most places don't stock their tall range in store anymore so I have to order online which for me is an inconvenience.

I don't want to belittle it either, Robin, sorry if I gave that impression.

I do feel that it's pretty much normal for me to leave the house looking butch whereas it would have been more of a target for comment 20 years ago, but not now. That's just my experience.

I do think it would be much harder for a man to leave the house wearing a skirt or dress, he is likely to encounter an insult or stares much faster. In fact, sadly, it's almost inevitable that someone will at least think it, whereas I think "butch" has blended in in a way that a man in a dress hasn't.

I find it hard to believe that the average person would even notice that a woman was wearing a tshirt, jeans, hoody from the mans section tbh. It would, however, stand out if a man wore the same from the womens sections.

Womens jeans, for example, have a shorter area between fly and crotch, the seat tends to be a little more snug too. They also have more stretch (on the whole) than mens jeans which are quite rigid with little room for movement.
Womens Shirts are cut much smaller across the shoulders than a mans equivalent.
womens Tshirts, IME, have a much lower neck line, much shorter sleeves and hug the torso far more than a male equivalent.
Womens hoodies are okay to wear as a man but the arms seem to be shorter than a male equivalent, i can see why ladies with longer arms would pick a mans hoody tbh.
As for footwear, mens styles are quite limited in a lot of ways, colours and styles are all a bit black or brown, iyswim. Where as shoes from the womens section come in various widths, heel heights, colours yadda yadda. (Women can also where quite awesome knee high boots little to no eye brow raising, where as a man can't without getting the usual comments)

It seems, and this is purely in my experience, that women on average have a huge range of choices in the womens department and can add in the mens section at times too, where as men have the mans section with nothing being added by the average guy from the womens section.
(Not that the average man would even dream of wearing something from the womens section)

I'm with a few exceptions a very girly girl in clothes (I may have to name change after saying that ). My tuxedo suit was tailored for a woman but the visual effect was I was wearing a dinner suit. The jacket was narrow shouldered but not waisted. I never got anything but compliments.

I can think of 2 young women I know who wear suits. Not lawyers office style suits but Reservoir Dog style black suits with Converse/Van/Docs style footwear. I'm not aware of them experiencing the problems you have described. I see the occasional women in a suit around and they seem to be fine too.

I don't want to belittle what your friends experienced which is awful and wrong but there is a tradition of female cross dressing from the Victorian "mashers" onwards which I think gives a woman in a suit an edge/a sense of an individual style which doesn't work the other way round for men.( I appreciate men's lesbian fantasies play a part)

Your friends might have had to deal with the sort of neanderthal who if they didn't have that to pick on would have found something else to pick on rather than a general antipathy to women in suits.

Robin, sorry I missed that.

Never had anyone shout or had any experience of it reported to me, hopefully your friends have just been unlucky.

I wonder how common it actually is for someone of one sex to wear the other clothes? I think it's probably more common than we realise. Especially for things like jeans, T-Shirts and hoodies. I know of a few men wearing jeans from the women's section for example. Skinny jeans or "boyfriend" jeans I'm not sure you could tell.

I work for a large clothing company and the demand for the default cut t shirt are huge compared to t shirt cut for women. I can't imagine the company I work for selling such large numbers of t-shirts just to one sex. It probably helps that the default T-shirt goes from something like XXS to 6XXL

Sorry cross posted. Apologies for my last post which is a bit grumpy. We will have to park this. I don't agree women face the same constraints on what is acceptable for them to wear.

Husband and I could theoretically go to the Levis shop, buy the same pair of jeans in our respective sizes, buy the same sweatshirt in our respective sizes , buy the same jean jacket in our respective sizes, put them on , walk out of the shop (and apart from the double denim fashion crime) no one would notice or care.

If we popped in to Zara and bought the same dress and cardigan in our respective sizes , put them on and walked out how far do you think we would get before the first sniggering?

Also, when with a partner I was constantly borrowing shirts with cuff links, I just happen to like those. It's not unusual to see that though.

Robin, I'm really trying to understand this so please bear with me.

I do own a man's tux jacket and I wear it and I'm not aware that anyone has even noticed it is from the men's section.

I feel as if you're saying women can't walk around in men's t shirts or men's shoes and many of us are saying, yes, they can and frequently do. I have never ever had a negative response. I domt think I've worn a skirt since school. What is this negative response you refer to?

If anything I feel more like Her Madge "but for a boy to look like a girl is degrading, because you think being a girl is degrading".

I'm still completely lost as to what your points were OP so the fact I've demonstrated them is a bit of a surprise.

However if you think there is tolerance for men wearing women's clothes I recall a thread about transvestites on AIBU shortly after I joined which gives the lie to that.There was a fairly nasty example a couple of weeks ago on here too.

As for being preoccupied, you have mentioned women wearing men's clothes several times. I don't follow at all why it is so important to distinguish whether a pair of jeans is a man's pair or a woman's pair.

Robins, if you're saying you don't understand why it's not acceptable, in schools, offices etc for men to wear skirts, I agree, it should be acceptable and I don't know why it's not.

But is that what you are trying to say? I'm a bit lost.

Light, I agree about bras being a pain but I just buy them in a job lot. Other than that, I put as much as effort as your DP does unto dressing. I can't imagine spending emotional energy on it! I do think grooming standards are getting higher for women in offices and that is a great shame.

Light Emotional energy? It really as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. Most mornings I'm up and out - jeans, top and coat. I'd rather stay in bed for as long as possible but I used to enjoy waking up a bit earlier to choose a 'look' when I fancied it, and still do when I can be bothered with it.

Not read thread but I often comment to dp that it's so much easier for him to get dressed in the morning than me.

Tops trousers that's it. Everything goes with everything else.

I find dressing a real chore.
Bras, underwear, length style, socks/ tights, shoes and bags, it takes a lot of emotional energy!

SomeDyke, what you say about your make colleagues is how I do work wear, along with many other women. I do buy shoes for women but my feet are tiny. I on,y have comfy supportive shoes so I've not thought to look at men's shoes.

Ive also never heard of women getting flack for "dressing like men" but I may be confused about what means. I don't see jeans and t shirts as make clothing?

My social circle is one where no one would mind a man wearing a dress or skirt.

I'm confused
I dont think I'm paying more for jeans, trousers, t shirts, than men.