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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I hope this wasn't a stupid thing to do!

141 replies

CaptainWentworth · 04/04/2016 10:48

I've just impulsively done something which I'm now having a bit of a wibble about.

Had an email round all the regional offices of my firm this morning, from the Regional Chairman, to let us know about some recent promotions to partner. As usual they were both men, and for some reason I was moved to send the following reply (only to him, not everyone!)

Hi X,

Congratulations to Y and Z.

I may be wrong, but (from a glance at the public web pages for each office) I think the new promotions will make 24 male partners in the region to one female. I’d be so pleased if that ratio improved in the future; I’m sure there can’t be such a lack of talented senior women in the firm.

Apologies if that sounds impertinent; I don’t mean to be – it’s just that the discrepancy struck me quite forcibly.

Kind regards,
CaptainWentworth

Have I just made a complete wally of myself/ labelled myself as a troublemaker? I'm a pretty junior minion around these parts so it's not like he will have any idea who I am- but he's prob thinking wtf! Blush

OP posts:
SouthDownsSunshine · 04/04/2016 14:34

flogging she's a junior manager, surely that's exactly the right level to engage in how more women can progress?

JeanneDeMontbaston · 04/04/2016 14:23

Sorry to hear that, flogging. It's not the norm everywhere, though.

PalmerViolet · 04/04/2016 14:14

I've worked with some excellent HR people (and excellent people in plenty of other depts too), and to a person, the thing that makes people good at their jobs is being able to stand back and listen when someone cares enough to make a point, and then accept help/involvement if it's a good idea that will improve the company, or needs mentoring to achieve it.

Snap, and it often takes someone from outside the comfort zone of upper management to be the catalyst.

GreenTomatoJam · 04/04/2016 14:05

Sound like pretty awful HR depts then flogging - or at best, jobsworths.

I've worked with some excellent HR people (and excellent people in plenty of other depts too), and to a person, the thing that makes people good at their jobs is being able to stand back and listen when someone cares enough to make a point, and then accept help/involvement if it's a good idea that will improve the company, or needs mentoring to achieve it.

The thing that makes a bad boss or employee is thinking they always know best and not knowing when someone is making an effort to make a change for the better.

JanTheJam · 04/04/2016 14:02

I think it's a great email too and please let us know what the response is, even if unspoken.

You know DH was v senior in a multi national privately owned company based in Central Europe. It was an open secret that only white, straight males rose to the top. Absolutely no black men or gay men did. The woman on the board was a member of the family and hated by the rest of the board for being an uppity bitch - ie a woman of strong opinion.

I know anecdote doesn't = data but it is fantasy to think that no women were suitable for the higher positions.

Floggingmolly · 04/04/2016 13:54

Any HR Dept. I've ever known have been extremely averse to any outside interference, even when it might appear to be warrented.
An offer from a junior clerk to "help review their policies" would probably have them rolling in the aisles.
But maybe I'm wrong and they'll jump at the chance...

Kidnapped · 04/04/2016 13:53

Of course it is a valid point that you make, unless the Regional Chairman writes back and states that the you are incorrect and that there are actually more women than stated.

The only thing I'd change (for anything you may write in future) is not to lead with "I may be wrong but...". Just put "I have noticed..." or whatever.

Could you maybe think of a couple of things that might help improve this ratio? That means that if he does come back to you, you are not on the back foot. And reiterate your willingness to help the company in this regard.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 04/04/2016 13:48

What's wrong with that, flogging?

I accept we don't know the culture of the OP's workplace, but in mine, this would be possible and would actually be quite welcome, I think.

Floggingmolly · 04/04/2016 13:47

offer to work with HR and senior management to review. Seriously??

JeanneDeMontbaston · 04/04/2016 13:44

Well, if concluding the OP wrote a fine letter is leaping to a conclusion, sure. Confused

SouthDownsSunshine · 04/04/2016 13:41

Good for you! I also tend to do things like this ...

I think there's a strong argument to be made that whilst they were appointed on merit, there is clearly something going wrong if the ratio is so poor.

Perhaps follow up the email with an offer to work with hr and senior management to review if there is anything that can help women progress to partner? That way you're turning a grumpy email into a positive.

scallopsrgreat · 04/04/2016 13:41

Really Shutthatdoor? How are we leaping to conclusions - those of us who think the OP did a good thing? Genuinely interested.

I do think it is very telling that the first two responses to this were - how dare you raise your head above the parapet on this. As if there is something very wrong with pointing out an inequality when you see it.

anotherdayanothersquabble · 04/04/2016 13:41

Hoping you get a reply. I think your email was a good one and deserved to be said.

(and I think Lizzie did call you a dick, couched in 'it's your behaviour I don't love' language)

And even if women get promoted into the vacated positions but still never made partner, your point still stands.

Hamiltoes · 04/04/2016 13:35

I thought the email was great. Hope you update if you ever do get a response.

Shutthatdoor · 04/04/2016 13:29

Lots of leaping to conclusions, I think.

From both positions on this thread Imo.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 04/04/2016 13:27

Why are we assuming that these talented senior women, who, if partnerships were awarded on merit would be equally in the running to the men who were actually promoted; either haven't noticed or are unable to fight their own corner?

Is anyone assuming that?

Why are you assuming that the OP's letter suggests either of those things? It doesn't to me.

Why do you assume that these talented senior women think junior women shouldn't be allowed to comment on what's obvious - that there's a gender imbalance? Why do you think those women would interpret the OP's letter as a comment on them personally, rather than on the whole situation?

Lots of leaping to conclusions, I think.

slugseatlettuce · 04/04/2016 13:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scallopsrgreat · 04/04/2016 13:16

Aah yes women, don't get too uppity will you.

Absolutely agree with ArcheryAnnie.

You pointed out very simply and well the discrepancy and I think also pointed out that as a woman (perhaps going on up through the firm) the lack of female role models in a partner position will be disadvantageous. I think others are right - how he responds to your e-mail will be very telling.

Floggingmolly · 04/04/2016 13:09

Why are we assuming that these talented senior women, who, if partnerships were awarded on merit would be equally in the running to the men who were actually promoted; either haven't noticed or are unable to fight their own corner?

Op has no idea whether any supposed injustices in the recruitment process have already been addressed by the people actually affected.
It's actually a bit upstarty to presume they need you to point it out on their behalf, actually. It's probably the very last thing they need.

ArcheryAnnie · 04/04/2016 12:50

Well, I think that letter was bloody magnificent, OP.

It's not about saying women should be promoted over the "best qualified for the job". It's about noting that management seem to think that men are always and forever the best qualified, when that may not be true. There are a ton of studies on this, with some traits in men valued as positive when exactly the same traits in women are viewed as negative, and so on.

Anyone who thinks that the current state of play in business leadership is due to a meritocracy in action must sincerely believe that women are inherently inferior, since so few (relatively speaking) rise to the top.

Well done, OP.

juliascurr · 04/04/2016 12:40

And no, there is nothing wrong with your email. Hope some more arrive in his in-box
Well done

juliascurr · 04/04/2016 12:37

Loving the immediate introduction of 'merit' - of course, if we overlook the massive discrepancy and over-representation of men in every single area then we can believe its because men have more merit. White, able-bodied, heterosexual, etc too. Ridiculous.

NormaStanleyFletcher · 04/04/2016 11:39

Do let us know if you do get a response.

NormaStanleyFletcher · 04/04/2016 11:38

I think your email was absolutely fine, very good in fact. It doesn't seem churlish to me - recent promotions is why you noticed.

Newes · 04/04/2016 11:27

The only thing I wouldn't have done is send that in response to an email about recent promotions. Your points are valid and well set out but even with 'Congratulations to X and Y' it does come across as a little churlish and implicit criticism of the recruitment process for those jobs.

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