How are we supposed to do ALL of this?

"OK - women should do as much housework as they want - is that 'should' OK? In may case, that is very little.

Honestly, there is nothing misogynistic in saying women shouldn't do housework they don't want to do. Quite the opposite, in fact."

Well in a weird way there is because what you're failing to do is recognise the worth of housework, something that women have traditionally done, and something that needs to be done so that other people can engage in other occupations which garner more praise and admiration from society.

Look, I'm the laziest woman in the world and my version of "too much" housework is to get my arse off the sofa to put my mould-filled cups in the sink but even I recognise that a certain amount of housework needs to be done .

And whilst married even I found myself doing more than my even lazier XH because I recognised that I didn't want our DS growing up in a disaster zone.

Housework isn't something that only the Monicas of the world do because they want to (who was after all a sitcom character who worked as a chef all day and came back home itching to get cleaning, yeah because those women exist everywhere ) it's something that is necessary for the rest of society to continue.

but it is not a practical analysis of why this happens in relationships and how to guard against it

OK we know how it happens(you've explained it)
So how do we start looking at guarding against it?

Because they only way I was equipped to guard against it was to watch out for it and stamp on it damb quick.

I don't think I've explained that very well, or which is way I kept deleting post. It's very hard to articulate. How I help her, but I can see changes in her and him. She knows what she doesn't want. But she's finding it hard to get things how she wants it.

Bloody hell AskBasil that is a fucking awesome post. I don't like to swear but your post merits it

See the thread I started a few days ago on 'emotional labour'.....

AskBasil

Whilst you were writing that 22:24

I have wrote rewrote and delete a post about just what you are saying.

In RL I am close to a younger friend who is going through just this situation. I'm actually giving all the support and advice I can to her. She loves him shes hoping to marry him. I know if I said straight out just LTB it would not go down well and she would be upset. I also realise she would stop seeking me out to confide in.

I give her my opinion on his behaviour and point out things she says does that enables him further also. We discuss how she should approach him on subjects and arguments to make him stop and think and change.

When she says things like, I told him I needed help getting it all done before X Time but he didn't help. I point out she shouldn't be asking for help, because that makes it look like it's her responsibility in the first place. Instead she should say.
Look this this and this need doing, WE need to have it done before X time.

Then Say nothing so he has to divi up who does what and when.

I don't know it's hard to describe these things.

So yes I know exactly what you are saying, And I'm sorry to the OP for not giving her the same courtesy and support I give my friend.

The reason I don't want to stop my friend from confiding in me is that, unfortunately I see her walking straight into a very controlling and abusive marriage. Whilst the lines of communication are still open I can help her see sense in the long run

She has already dropped another of her friends for saying she needs to LTB

So your message is "accept that you have to live in a shit hole and never be comfortable in your own home"?

Really?

That's what women are being told all the time, isn't it. Accept a standard of hygiene and comfort that you would not choose if you didn't live with this guy. Stop expecting to feel comfortable in your own home. Stop expecting the other adult you live with, who claims to love you, to contribute to your comfort instead of undermining it.

Can you tell me what's feminist about that message? And can you tell me where the recipe for happiness is, in that message?

Because I'm not seeing it.

But it won't change ILeaveTheRoom, if we continue to blame women for it, rather than requiring men to tackle it.

Telling women that they should just leave their husbands if they stop pulling their weight, is placing the burden of changing men's behaviour, on women.

It's an individual solution. It works for me. But most women want to live with men and buy into the idea of heteronormative families and most of this exploitative "I've forgotten how to load a dishwasher or pick my own socks up" shit, starts after women have had children with men (coincidentally just like most domestic violence does).

Men start behaving like this when their negotiating power has increased - because in patriarchy having a child makes a woman less powerful (less able to earn her own living, less marketable, less attractive as an employee) while it bestows power on a man (fathers are paid more than non-fathers, even if you weight data for confounding factors like age and class - they are seen as more mature, more serious, more committed adults, better employees). At a gut level, men know that having children makes them powerful and funnily enough that's when they start to abuse the power their society gives them.

Women don't know that. It happens gradually, imperceptibly, over the course of years. And to be fair, men don't consciously know it either and that's why it's so hard to recognise it's happening until you realise you've got to this place that 20 years ago, neither of you would have predicted or wanted.

It's not good enough to just say that women should simply walk out on their homes, marriages and relationships and embrace poverty, stigma and conflict, because this happens. "Leave the bastard" is not a feminist response to a crie de couer from someone who is asking for support and comment (she's posted in FWR, she could have posted in relationships, AIBU etc.) That might ultimately be the only solution, but it is not a practical analysis of why this happens in relationships and how to guard against it.

"Be like me, not stupid enough to choose the wrong man" is just a pretty shit response IMO. I don't recognise it as a feminist one, just a cool girl/ mean girl one.

OK - women should do as much housework as they want - is that 'should' OK? In may case, that is very little.

My definition of 'too much' housework is any amount that makes you unhappy and feel like an exploited drudge.

Honestly, there is nothing misogynistic in saying women shouldn't do housework they don't want to do. Quite the opposite, in fact.

It's not a feminist analysis to say women shouldn't do so much housework when

a) you are not defining how much housework they are doing

b) you are not defining how much they "should" be doing

c) you are not defining what the point of all this so called "too much" housework is.

d) you are using the word "should" in regard to women's behaviour, always a tricky thing in a feminist analysis of anything.

Most people understand housework to be just cleaning up your own shit. Putting dishes away, hanging clothes up, putting stuff back in cupboards when you use them. That sort of thing.

Most women who complain about their partners exploiting their domestic labour, are not complaining that their houses don't look like houses in advertisements. They are complaining about the fact that they are having to do all the organisation, thinking and "ownership" of routine domestic tasks.

The pretence that women are doing too much housework because they are too stupid to relax and read a book, and so malevolent that they want to inflict their irrational housework mania on their long-suffering, rational husbands, is born of pure misogyny. It plays into a stereotype which really doesn't hold up in most of real life.

Well I wouldn't say that to them and trivialise it. So I hope we can agree on something.

Look I don't want to blame a woman, but I do find it frustrating. Because as I have said before it is right up there on my will not tolerate list.

I understand that it is obviously not on other womens lists and it saddens me.
And yes needs to change.

Well, my feminist analysis is that women shouldn't do so much housework. I am always amazed by the amount of cleaning etc that seems to go on according to Mumsnet. As I said previously: Just. Stop.

And of course ILeaveTheRoom...(and now I am addressing you ) when women say to other women "leave the bastard" because of him not pulling his weight, they are told that that is a frivolous, outrageous, irresponsible thing to tell a woman - because housework is trivial and marriage is serious and how can you be so ridiculous as to advise ending a relationship over a few unwashed dishes.

Hey, I have no problem with my life, I solve the problem of lazy good for nothing men by not living with them, not blaming women for the fact that they are lazy and good for nothing and telling women that they deserve it. I'm not addressing any poster personally, I'm addressing this tide of sneery shit that masquerades as feminism while refusing to actually apply a feminist analysis to an issue that is being asked about in the FWR section. This isn't AIBU, it's FWR and so the questions raised are perfectly proper to discuss from a feminist POV.

I ask again: if somebody deliberately, continuously does something in a relationship that they know hurts and distresses and angers the other party in that relationship, how would you characterise that behaviour, if not as abusive?

What would you call it?

Unless someone is genuinely crazy, it is pretty nasty to deliberately make their home, where we all have the right to expect to feel comfortable and safe, into an uncomfortable, horrible place to be.

Yep. Spot on.

where we all have the right to expect to feel comfortable and safe, into an uncomfortable, horrible place to be

Just before I go. I do have to agree with you on this.
My answer? Leave the sexest bastard.

You seem to be assuming that all the women who are in this position have 'demented hygiene standards'. It's obvious from a brief perusal of the relationships board that it isn't about that. It's about men who refuse to support their partner or behave as a member of a team, who essentially see their partner as a maid.

Just to be clear AskBasil that is not my quote, as it looks like you are addressing me.

Nice why not polarise the argument by using example of a man banging heads against walls. When we all know physical abuse isn't the only sort of abuse there is.

Seriously if you can't see how one woman moaning about her dh not pulling his weight. Is not abuse. There is no point carrying on with this thread.

Why don't you just carry on whining , it's snot fair, and then do fuck all about it.

No skin of my nose. I'll just carry on with with my life, and still call a sexest a sexest when I come across them.

AskBasil - you do realise I am a woman, just as much as you are? Just because I am not inclined to sympathise with women who do loads of domestic shit then whinge about it, doesn't actually make me a man. It makes me a woman who doesn't do much housework. You should try it - it's great

I completely agree with the comments about unnecessary chore making. Christmas for example is always a bumper fest of AIBU threads complaining about having the responsibility for things like buying presents for armies of relatives on husband's or partners' side. Why agree to do it in the first place?

Especially when societal expectation is weighted towards that situation occurring in the first place and the women are being the conscientious ones

Is it ? In the context of 2 people living together? One party has no volition of her own?

Ah yes the "women have impossibly demanding standards that no sensible man could ever be expected to live up to. They're all just like Monica in Friends" argument.

Bullshit. Most women have perfectly normal standards, because most women aren't maniacs. Pretending we are, is buying into that misogynist bullshit that says we're irrational and loons and generally inferior to sensible men and we should stop doing that, because a) it's sexist rubbish and b) it undermines women who are genuinely trying to have equal relationships.

Unless someone is genuinely crazy, it is pretty nasty to deliberately make their home, where we all have the right to expect to feel comfortable and safe, into an uncomfortable, horrible place to be.

Stop making excuses for people who do that. Stop gaslighting women by pretending that we are all fucking Monica. We're not. We're mostly normal.

But it isn't necessarily men shirking their domestic responsibilities, it is often that they are not performing them to the woman's satisfaction. But why should she be the one to decide how housework is done & how much of it?

Mumsnet usually seems to me to be full of complete clean freaks, I could never live up to their demented hygiene standards & I would resent being expected to. If women are coming up with lists and rules, that shows real disrespect for their partner. Perhaps he doesn't think the floor needs mopped every day & the sheets changed every week? I certainly don't want to waste my precious time on such uptight unnecessary chore making, if women want to do that, I am not going to respect them moaning about it. Just. Stop.

And OP btw, you've said you'd rather not live with someone who is like your DP.

I think you're right. I think women should just stop living with most men tbh. With a few honourable exceptions, it's just not a very good deal for us.

""Sorry but I really think that you end up with the partner you deserve"

That is a really vile thing to say to someone who has a horrible partner. You're telling the OP that she deserves a manipulative, exploitative partner. Nice.

I don't really know how you can argue that deliberately exploiting someone you live with and claim to love, every single day you live with them, is not abusive behaviour.

Just because it's not knocking them against a wall or swearing at them and calling them names, doesn't mean it's not abusive behaviour.

It is abusive to exploit someone. We know this in other contexts. Why is it not abusive to exploit someone in the domestic sphere? Why is that context alone, immune from connections being made between someone's behaviour and what that means for how they feel about someone?

Or are we arguing that exploitation isn't abusive?

Or that shirking your fair share of shit stuff that needs to be done, isn't exploitation? If it isn't, what is it?