How are we supposed to do ALL of this?

You know, in every other area of life it's recognised that you should do your utmost to not piss off the people that you interact with.

I have a colleague who leaves her dirty cups on the desk every day, because she's too busy and important to clear them up like everyone else does.

It's no big deal, it doesn't bother me, but I find it bizarre behaviour and I know some of my colleagues are really outraged by it. She's been spoken to by different managers and different people have dropped hints about it over the years, but to no avail - she'll leave her dirty cups on the desk every time, sometimes over the weekend.

Every single colleague I have, knows her behaviour is wrong. There are different levels of annoyance with her from mine (zero, because I don't care) to the bloke who sits next to her (10, because he feels it as a personal attack on his space, even though it's technically her space).

The point is, it doesn't really matter what the level of annoyance is, she knows that it irritates some people and she still doesn't care. She's recognised as someone who is unwilling to do something really minor, to make her colleague's lives slightly more pleasant. There have been many conversations re whether it's her being passive aggressive, whether she means to piss people off, whether she's making a statement, whether she just forgets, etc.

People can see it in a work environment. It's crystal clear that there is something inexplicable and odd about this behaviour and people just can't get their heads around it.

It's not so serious that it deserves sacking, or warnings or anything like that. It's just odd. But the point is, everyone sees it and no-one makes excuses for her. They just dislike her for it.

But in a home setting, people just say "oh live with it, it's only a few greasy fingers". Yes, it is, but why would you leave greasy marks everywhere if you know it upsets those around you? Why would you do that? Why is it that behaviour that everyone recognises as really unacceptable and shitty in the workplace, is somehow OK at home, when surely you are under more obligation to the person you are supposed to love and respect, than colleagues you may not know in 10 years time?

I'm not that great at cooking, however hard I try, dh is better. Dh is useless at admin/finance in comparison to me however, we still take turns doing these jobs, he doesn't moan or criticise my cooking, I don't criticise his attempts at admin. There are things that need to be done, we both need to do them and respect we have different ways of doing them. This is what you need to aim for op, you need to be clear or the imbalance will drive you mad.

And also there you go again, minimising women's distress and minimising the discomfort of either living in squalor or doing far more of the domestic labour than is fair or reasonable.

Oh it's just a few greasy marks on the fridge. Because we're all Monica, right?

"So your message is "accept that you have to live in a shit hole and never be comfortable in your own home"?

If all that was wrong, after DP 'cleaned' the kitchen, was some greasy fingerprints on the kitchen cupboards, that does not qualify as living in a shit hole."

Bumbledumb, do you think it is an acceptable, loving and decent way to behave, to continually do something that you know really upsets the person you live with? Do you think it's the sign of a respectful, loving person and a respectful, loving relationship?

*Colleague

I make so many spelling mistakes I know, but this one stood out

c) I think telling women that the only way to solve the issue of men doing whatever it is that is a systemic, ongoing problem for women, is by them taking their own individual action against it (irrespective of the consequences) and if they don't it's their fault they're "letting" men do it, is incredibly dismissive. Really amazingly so. If it's dismissiveness you don't like, try that one, how can you not recognise the dismissiveness in that response?

The thing is we do need to educate boys and girls,

I'm not saying just women rejecting men is the answer. But trying to teach men it's not acceptable, in anyway we can, teach our sons about sexism etc.....

Sexism still needs to be called out by women also. Boys need educating but it needs to be backed up.

By that I mean in general, Trying to make media recognise and use the word sexist. Individuals challenging casual sexist behaviour when they see it. Whether thats a college making a a random joke or something else.

I asked in a pp

If women don't call out sexist behaviour, who will?

I would hope other men would then start calling it out too.

But someone needs to start the ball moving.

So your message is "accept that you have to live in a shit hole and never be comfortable in your own home"?

If all that was wrong, after DP 'cleaned' the kitchen, was some greasy fingerprints on the kitchen cupboards, that does not qualify as living in a shit hole.

It needs to start with our sons and daughters.

People need to stop buying into the gender shit. Stop thinking "it's natural" somehow for girls to like dollies, toy kitchens, playing mummies and daddies. Stop teaching boys to avoid "girly stuff", stop thinking they ate a different species.

Put the same expectations on boys as girls, so they dont grow up seeing raising babies and looking after the house as stuff girls and women like, boys and men don't, they "need" to be outdoors burning off energy.

ILeavetheRoom, I think it's because the media don't even like to admit sexism is a thing.

It never, ever got the same level of social opprobrium as racism or other bigotry.

Individual actions are worthwhile in themselves, for the individuals, of course they are.

But actually, unless enough individuals do the same thing and therefore cause a tipping point, they don't cause a social change.

That's not dismissing individual actions. It's just recognising that on their own, they don't change the bigger picture.

As for individual actions being dismissed and that being offputting about feminism

a) feminism doesn't dismiss individual actions. "Deeds not words" is an exhortation to individual action isn't it?

b) I think anyone who wants to be put off feminism will always find something to put them off

and

c) I think telling women that the only way to solve the issue of men doing whatever it is that is a systemic, ongoing problem for women, is by them taking their own individual action against it (irrespective of the consequences) and if they don't it's their fault they're "letting" men do it, is incredibly dismissive. Really amazingly so. If it's dismissiveness you don't like, try that one, how can you not recognise the dismissiveness in that response?

"ah well, all men are useless, let's not bother". Now THAT'S sexist

No it would be a message that particular man was useless. The more society sees it will not be tolerated. The more people will not accept it, The more men will be aware that they cannot behave this way.

If you have genuinely fallen into this pattern, your DP is all other respects great. But it just crept up on both of you. Wouldn't they be upset when you realise and point out to them that they are now behaving in a very sexest way? And want to change?

I feel that the calling someone sexist, is no on anymore. You don't hear it in the media the don't name this behaviour sexist, it's like it's a dirty word.

There is stuff going on in tennis at moment, its in the media, but I haven't heard media use the word sexist.

I don't think individual actions to take control over your own life should be dismissed as worthless - I think they are the most effective catalyst for incremental societal change, actually

Agreed. The most off-putting aspect of feminism is the way this is dismissed.


Bobochic do you honestly believe that?

That men are either utterly incapable of being fair to women, or simply determined not to be? That they hold us in such contempt, that they will always grind us down in our relationships by refusing to do their fair share of domestic work?

You don't like men very much do you?

I don't blame you, if you think they're all such horrible people.

you can choose to LTB, things have improved to the extent that women have that option, in fact, we could all LTB, but then what? (actually maybe if we all did LTB, that WOULD be a challenge to heteronormative hegemony!)

Yup and I consider that a victory for the much maligned liberal feminism

No, if societal change required that all women left all unsatisfactory men, that would be more like separatist feminism, not libfem...I don't see that gaining significant traction any time soon. There'd be no shift in the balance of power, no improvement in society, just an abdication, "ah well, all men are useless, let's not bother". Now THAT'S sexist.

"You have to bite the bullet and outsource those chores to a third party.".
And if you don't have the money for that?

Women are onto a losing racket if they try to insist that men do "their fair share" of household chores. You have to bite the bullet and outsource those chores to a third party.

I think it would result in more happier women myself, I don't think individual actions to take control over your own life should be dismissed as worthless - I think they are the most effective catalyst for incremental societal change, actually.

you can choose to LTB, things have improved to the extent that women have that option, in fact, we could all LTB, but then what? (actually maybe if we all did LTB, that WOULD be a challenge to heteronormative hegemony!)

Yup and I consider that a victory for the much maligned liberal feminism

Standing ovation for Basil!

I have somehow ended up in a 1950s style marriage, despite being an educated, high-earning, emotionally intelligent feminist. It happens (in my case through a combination of expatriation and illness).

I don't deny that my own choices in life have contributed to it, but they're only one part of the equation. We don't make choices in a vacuum, and blaming individual women for their lot in life isn't a sophisticated analysis of the system, and doesn't stand any chance of changing it. It's another example of where choice-based liberal feminism doesn't advance women at all - yes, you can choose to LTB, things have improved to the extent that women have that option, in fact, we could all LTB, but then what? (actually maybe if we all did LTB, that WOULD be a challenge to heteronormative hegemony!)