How are we supposed to do ALL of this?

Isn't that the essence of privilege? It doesn't affect me so it doesn't need to be fixed. Even though without the influence of the privileged it won't be?

Feminism should speak and consider all women. And the fact that women tend to end up in lower paid jobs and can't buy their way out of the problem is a feminist issue.

No, I have thought about pretty deeply and came out the other side a long time ago ;)

I'm not overthinking, Bobo, you're underthinking.

You are not willing to think about why you think that if you don't have money, men need to be nagged to clean their own toilets.

Also you are not presenting any particular solution, because most people cannot afford to pay someone else to clean their loo, do their laundry, vacuum their houses etc.

So what do you propose they do then? Or would you prefer not to think about it?

Only, this is the FWR section, where thinking is encouraged.

The less money you have, the more likely you are to have dull things to argue about rather than solving problems by throwing cash at them. That isn't a feminist issue.

Most people can't afford that actually but that's just a class/income issue and not really the issue for the thread.

On the post above about the husband who doesn't fold the washing right I am always interested to contrast that kindo f situation with our marriage. I was always happy to be regarded as the worst of the 2 of us at washing, stacking the dishwasher etc. I never felt I was better than he was or would remember tasks more than he would.

When eventually we could afford a cleaner one of the most helpful things she did (still does) is put the washing away. No one irons in this house nd we don't put things in an airing cupboard - I think they come out of the tumble drier or the utilty room drying rack things and then go in the pile for her to put away

You are overthinking, AskBasil. I don't have a default position other than recommending that everyone outsource the cleaning of the loo.

BoboChic, I'm not asking you to think about asking someone to clean the loo.

I'm asking you why you think men need to asked to clean their own loo.

You said you didn't want to nag a man to clean the loo.

Which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say, I don't believe there is a woman in the world, whose ambition is to nag a man to clean the loo. Or even to ask him to clean the loo.

Why do you imagine that the default position, is that if a loo needs to be cleaned, if there is a man and a woman in the room, the man is going to need to be asked to do it?

Why does the woman not need to be asked?

Why are you refusing to engage with the question which has arisen because of something you said?

Are you going to engage with me, or are you just going to pretend that you don't understand what I'm asking you?

"I am not going to even think about asking anyone to clean the loo. How tedious."

But someone has to do it!

My only position is that I have far more interesting things to do in my relationship that worry about loo cleaning. I am not going to even think about asking anyone to clean the loo. How tedious.

It's because it's not always the next day, if she's out on site or working from home or whatever, then she might not be in the office for a couple of days. It's also a semi- hot-desking environment, so if there's a free desk, sometimes people need to use her one.

Bobochic, you said this:

"AskBasil - I like men very much

I therefore don't want to spend my time with men nagging them to clean the loo. I'd rather pay someone else to do it!"

Within that statement (the therefore is a clue), there is an assumption that if you have a man plus a loo plus a need to clean it, nagging must ensue.

What did you mean by it, if you aren't assuming that men need to be nagged to clean their own loos?

I'm not making any such assumption. I'm just saying that the very best way to deal with the cleaning of loos is not to do it but to pay someone else to do it :)

If dirty mug woman is washing her own cup the next day, I really fail to see why an entire office is getting so het up about it. I would struggle to give the tiniest little shit whether a colleague washed their mug one day or the next, it it was on their own desk. I do think some people almost seem to look for ways to be annoyed by others.

Bobochic why do you assume you need to nag men to clean their own loos? That is a really strange and insulting assumption, do you think they don't realise that loos get dirty and need cleaning?

I agree all men are not like this either. My father was tidier than my mother (who frankly didn't have much time for housework - she'd rather read) so growing up I remember him hoovering, emptying bins, emptying even the special sanitary towel bin he put up the bathroom for my sister and me. In my own long marriage my husband owned his own house when we met and I hadn't so he was teaching me things like how to work a cooker. When we had 3 under 4s in cloth nappies at night he washed all those even when we earned the same - for much of the marriage although we both worked full time I earned heaps more which also is a feminist thing - it really does help ensure power to women if you are all powerful God like higher earner creature.... well not exactly but a bit.

So I don't any child in this family is likely to end up with a sexist partner.

Also people differ in how tidy they want things to be. I have non identical twin boys. One genuinely is not unhappy if there is mess around. The other is like I am - likes everything in its place and clear surfaces. My mildly dylexic daughter is a tornado of mess wherever she goes (left home now) but even on visits you can tell she's here as things are just left behind her in her wake. These people who differ from the tidy ones are not wrong or bad - just different although I certainly accept that when as a class women end up with lazy dirty men who think becuase they have a penis and out earn women men can sit around there is definitely an endemic problem.

It certainly pays to marry someone with the same standards of hygiene that you have. Some couples are perfectly happy with mess piled high in every roomi. Others are both really tidy. Those relationships work well. Where people are very different though it's very hard.

AskBasil - I like men very much :)

I therefore don't want to spend my time with men nagging them to clean the loo. I'd rather pay someone else to do it!

I see as a big issue, if they don't respect you enough to sort it out.

If you think are arguing that it's on a par with physical abuse. Would you say to that woman, oh it's only a black eye, you should stay and work it out?

Because you are contradicting yourself in that post.

Either it is an issue of respect or its not.

How about there is a bigger issue in society and not just my relationship?

And no, there is no "bigger issue" in my relationship. It's just housework and responsibility for it. Why can't housework be an issue in itself? Why does there have to be a "bigger issue"? If your husband beats you, nobody will (as a rule) say "your black eye means that there is a bigger issue in your relationship". Obviously domestic labour inequality is not anywhere on par with physical assault, but as an issue it works much in the same way.

I don't think all men are like this. DH has things he doesn't see need doing (planning for longer trips), while there are things I don't see doing and my DH does (cleaning the kitchen -and the rest of the house- properly in my case ). But I guess in our case I consider things to be quite equal, so it doesn't annoy me that I have to do the planning (I enjoy it). I think DH has the short end of the straw to be honest.

If you have sat down, and called out his behaviour, talked about how he is treating you and it's not acceptable, and he is not suitable embarrassed by how his behaviour has slipped, and then tries to rectify it.

Then I think you have bigger issues in your relationship, the domestic stuff is just a smoke screen.

Oh no one cleans them up for her, she eventually rinses them out the next day or whatever.

Once, someone put them in her in tray.

" But I don't underestimate the impact of daily evidence that the person you love, who you consider an equal, shows through his actions that he thinks you're his domestic servant. "

Yes. It's the fact that it's the small everyday things, isn't it. It's not generally big dramatic things that pull people apart, it's the imperceptible pettiness of stuff.

Mug woman needs a tower of dirty cups left on her desk. Whoever is cleaning them for her should stop.

ILeaveTheRoomForTwoMinutes, do you seriously think that women who complain about their husbands not pulling their weight don't "call out" their sexism and raise their children in a sexist way? Yes, of course, I sit here on the feminist board on MN, write about radical feminism, but at home I am totally subservient and bring my hubby's slippers to him and pick up his streaked undies without a murmur of complaint while holding down a demanding, high-paying full-time job. Yeah.

That's another sexist myth - that "strong women" never end up in a sexist relationships. It works much in the same was as the one where "good girls" never get assaulted.

Its about intention really isn't it? I couldn't live with a partner who didn't even want to try to help or do tasks with me. I always offer to help dh with diy even though he's a builder and obviously doesn't need it.