How are we supposed to do ALL of this?

Really?

You think there's nothing wrong with leaving a mess when you've been told it annoys people and have been asked not to?

I think if you've been told something's annoying your colleagues and you carry on doing it, you are inconsiderate and rude, unless there is a specific reason you can't do anything about it.

In the same way, I think if you live with someone and you carry on doing something that they have told you over and over again, really upsets them, you are probably not a very nice person.

Although I am tidy and hate a cluttered surface, I am mug woman! At home and work. I'm not doing it because I'm lazy/important/busy.....l simply forget. Once drunk l forget about the entire thing. Then I'm quite amazed to find it tbh!

What l find weird though is other people's investment in a mug😁

I'm with Lass on this one, I don't get why Mug woman's behaviour is 'under the microscope' - I think it is the people that are getting worked up about it that are the strange ones (a bit like the posters being upset by finger markets on cupboard doors. I mean, really, let it go).

And I don't think it's rude. I have no opinion whatsoever on whether or not a colleague washes her mug every day.

In the same way, I think it's more interesting to analyse the behaviour of someone who is clearly doing something wrong, than the response of someone else to that wrong behaviour

Why is MugWomen "clearly doing something wrong " ? You think she is wrong. I don't.

whatthe, the point about Mug Woman (as I shall henceforth think of her ) is not whether people get worked up about it (most don't, they just think it's rude), it's her behaviour that is under the microscope- not other people's responses to it. The guy who sits next to her gets really pissed off with her, most other people don't care, they just wouldn't do it themselves because it's generally considered bad manners to not clear your own mess up in a shared space.

In the same way, I think it's more interesting to analyse the behaviour of someone who is clearly doing something wrong, than the response of someone else to that wrong behaviour.

Bobochic, it's not an intelligent approach to avoid every direct question asked and then claim someone is a man hater. That's not a very high standard of debate, if you don't mind me saying so.

Why don't you answer some of my questions, instead of projecting your own negative feelings about men, onto me? (I'm not the one who appears to believe that it's such an insurmountable problem to get them to take responsibility for their own mess, that it's best to avoid all discussion and simply outsource it. I think men are perfectly capable of engaging with routine, normal life.)

Thank goodness someone else who doesn't give a flying one about a colleagues mug. I can't get worked up about fingerprints on cupboard doors either & would really resent my DH if he tried to make me care & imposed lists & rules on me.

I have a colleague who leaves her dirty cups on the desk every day, because she's too busy and important to clear them up like everyone else does

Seriously- can anyone get worked up about this?

I work in an open plan office. I'm still here , not actually working. As a little experiment I've just returned a book to a colleague's desk. She's on holiday for a week- there is a mug with coffee dregs it. I bet if I were bonkers enough to check the rest of the floor I bet I'd find others.

I am interested in self-sabotaging "feminists" who don't want to do the hard work involved in identifying and putting in place solutions to their problems but prefer to rant against men (so much easier).

Well, no, because cleaning the toilet isn't just my problem, it's also DP's.

Now I can infantilise him, and outsource the toilet cleaning so he never needs to bother his pretty little head about it, but, shouldn't he be an adult, as likely to do that as me?

That's the fundamental point we're discussing - that no-one wants to discuss the details of toilet cleaning, and yet, women - even you it seems - are the ones that end up doing/thinking about it (even just to outsource) rather than the bloke.

Bobochic your argument was weak in the first place but fell conpletely apart when you fell back on the tired old chestnut of accusing AskBasil of man-hating.

It's obvious that AskBasil doesn't hate men. She is just asking you to address the issue of a couple who doesn't have the privilege (which you reek of) to pay for a cleaner.

Like most couples in this country.

It would be great if you could answer that question instead of resorting to cheap tactics.

I haven't implied anything of the sort. You are projecting your own feelings on my post because you want to be angry with men. Ask yourself why you want to be so angry. Get over it. Address the problem.

And, no, of course most people cannot afford to outsource everything they don't want to do. But the very act of attempting to do so is a very good negotiating tactic.

The solutions are the thignsm any of us have done for generations:

1. Before you get close to the man discuss issues like feminism, equality, women working etc with him. Ditch him if he isn't on the same page.

1. Look at his own family background - I was pleased my daughter's husband's parents both worked full time in a profession so that is his background - women work and earn what the man earns and don't give up work when babies come. Look at how he is on early dates - does he cook? Does he clean up? Are you almost immediately having to do his clearing up? Look at his parents - does his father and all the family men sit stuffing their faces at holiday times whilst women serve them or are the men in the family as likely to cook and clean up as the women? Is he from a family of sexist pigs or nice normal fair human beings who share tasks?

1. Before you consider marriage/living together talk about who would look after children if you have them, what he thinks about nannies, nurseries, child minders, if he wants to be a house husband etc etc.

These things are not hard to do.

BoboChic, it's not me that's implied men are incapable of taking responsibility for cleaning up their own shit.

It's you.

Your only solution, is to have lots of money and outsource it.

My solution assumes that men are capable human beings who can be be responsible adults if they want to.

BoboChic you haven't addressed in the slightest the point which has been made more than once, that most people simply cannot afford to outsource all the dull, boring bits of their lives.

Even when you outsource actually, you still have to do some housework. Unless you have a staff like Downton Abbey, of course.

The model of woman being the stay at home person who does all household chores while the man turns up to eat and sleep was post WW2 propaganda aimed at eliminating women back out of the workplace to make room for men returning.

It's a society issue, non a blame men issue. Men however are the ones who have benefitted from this model so are reluctant to give up the benefits.

I am interested in self-sabotaging "feminists" who don't want to do the hard work involved in identifying and putting in place solutions to their problems but prefer to rant against men (so much easier).

Kennington why are you advising your daughter to marry a man willing to help around the house?

Why is it her job? That he only has to help with?

I advise my daughter that if she wants to marry, she marry someone who knows that they're equally responsible for the housework as she is.

Not just a helper.

But that's me being a ranty feminist, what with thinking men and women are equally responsible for cleaning up their own shit.

You can highlight inequalities between the sexes very effectively by systematically attempting to outsource the issues in your relationship that cause discord. This has the huge advantage of putting a price on skills and labour and therefore measuring contributions.

What are you doing on the FWR section Bobochic?

Are you interested in feminism, or do you just come here to call women who want to discuss issues from a feminist perspective, ranty feminists?

It's also about men who feel that they have an opt-out on housework because it's not really their job. It's women's and they're happy to help, but they don't "own" it. Because they have deep down sexist assumptions which they don't realise they have in many cases and which the women they live with, aren't willing to acknowledge because of what it implies about their relationship.

You can pretend that outsourcing it solves the problem and to some extent, it may solve the problem of the dirty toilet/ carpet/ laundry, but it doesn't solve the problem of sexism.

You don't want a solution, AskBasil. You just want to be a ranty feminist who blames men for everything.

And again you're misrepresenting the issue BoboChic

This isn't about couples who don't want to clean their loo.

This is about couples who don't necessarily outsource the housework, where one member of that couple is exploiting the other member.

Pretending it's all about 2 people equally averse to housework, is disingenuous.

Very patronising me but I would always advise my daughter to marry a man who is enlightened and willing to help around the house.

I do less than my other half anyway. I'd never go near someone who is sat around watching sport with a beer in his hand when there is housework to be done!!!

No. The solution to problems in couples where neither party wants to do the job is not to fight about how to share them but to outsource them to a third party. If more people realized this there would be far less divorce.