How are we supposed to do ALL of this?

Askbasil hits the nail on the head. I agree that OP seems depleted by the constant thinking and managerial tasks of the household. Anybody can be told what to do and anyone can 'clean' a kithen to the lowest standards possible.

OP just wants DH to think outside the box; it's not about finger marks, it's about not just ticking jobs off the list of what you've been told and thinking for himself.
For example "the oven hasnt been cleaned for a while whilst I'm here mopping the floor and cleaning dishes like I've been told, maybe I'll just give the walls and tiles are scrub too."

We have glossy kitchen cupboards in grey and greasy finger marks show up massively. Also, dirt aside, isn't it a little unhygenic to leave greasy finger smears on the cupboards? It would literally take seconds to give them a quick wipe down. I don't think OPs issue is with finger marks anyway, it's with the choice (and not inability) to do as little as possible with as little thought as is possible. Like a child would.

Bumbledumb, you seem to be heavily invested in missing the point, but it's very telling that you declare that she told him to clean the kitchen.

If she did and you see nothing wrong with that, then I can understand why you keep missing the point. Because I find it pathetic, that he has to be told. No one has to tell me when my kitchen needs cleaning, because I'm an adult. The OP is complaining that she has to write to do lists and "he can't think for himself". Thinking, meal planning etc., knowing what needs to be done to have a place under control and functioning, is part of the job; waiting for someone else to tell you that, is part of the wearying shit that the OP is complaining about. And it's the equivalent of the gathering up of the office cups etc. It's the being solely responsible for the project management of it, rather than just having the luxury of being told what to do. Like a child.

Even if mug woman went round the whole office hoovering and wiping tables, if she still didn't take her mug to the kitchen, as she has been repeatedly asked to do, it would still be disrespectful.

This reminds me of a skit my partner does, if I ask him if he remember to to get something when shopping. 'No' he says, 'but I got a calculator with the number zero crossed out, a toy car with 5 wheels, and every issue of the TV times from 1982'

ie. Making light of the fact that it doesn't matter what else you do, if you don't do the one thing you were specifically asked to do.

How greasy will the cupboards need to be before it becomes an issue? What if it's Nutella rather than grease? Why when she wants it is it over-zealous polishing required, but when he doesn't do it it's apparently a minor task he happens to have forgotten?

In my household, both of us are pretty happy to live in filth actually. We both have very low standards. Except that now we have kids, I'm not prepared for them to live in filth - they need clean plates and clothes and he knows that I will pick up the slack (so I stop doing his stuff - which is ridiculous and petty, but makes the point). Plus, I work from home, so if the sink is full of stinky washing up, then I suffer. He's out all day, so he doesn't.

The OP's DH hasn't done the Mug Woman equivalent of what you have described.

Why not? He cleaned the kitchen, but did not notice the greasy fingerprints on the cupboard doors.

On the contrary, she's the one who is doing the mug woman task of collecting all the office mugs, washing them, drying them, putting them away, tidying the area, sweeping and mopping the floor. And then her colleauge is coming and putting fingerprints on the cupboard door.

This makes no sense to me at all. The OP did not clean the kitchen, she told her DH to clean the kitchen. He stopped short of polishing the kitchen cupboards. How does that mean that she did any of it herself?

"How would you characterise behaviour where someone does something over and over again, that they know distresses the person they share space with?

I would define that as disrespectful. But if mug woman actually collected all the mugs around the office, washed them, dried them, put them away, tidied up the area, swept and mopped the floor, I would find it disrespectful of a colleague to be pulling her up on the presence of fingerprints on the cupboard doors."

At last, an answer. Disrespectful. So you do recognise that it's disrespectful and usually, when women are lectured about what to expect from relationships, the bottom line is respect.

Except when it comes to housework. Then suddenly, women are told to forget everything they ever heard they had the right to expect and told to stop overreacting about the continual, ongoing lack of respect they are shown every day.

Bumbledumb, why are you making up this fantasy scenario about MugWoman? It doesn't in any way way tally with the situation the OP is talking about and in fact, it's a mirror image. The OP's DH hasn't done the Mug Woman equivalent of what you have described. On the contrary, she's the one who is doing the mug woman task of collecting all the office mugs, washing them, drying them, putting them away, tidying the area, sweeping and mopping the floor. And then her colleauge is coming and putting fingerprints on the cupboard door. Not complaining about her doing so. That is a nearer analogy.

I'm almost finding it funny, how desperate some women are, to deny that there is a problem with housework. Almost.

How would you characterise behaviour where someone does something over and over again, that they know distresses the person they share space with?

I would define that as disrespectful. But if mug woman actually collected all the mugs around the office, washed them, dried them, put them away, tidied up the area, swept and mopped the floor, I would find it disrespectful of a colleague to be pulling her up on the presence of fingerprints on the cupboard doors.

I have to agree with Askbasil a few posts back in respect to the poem. I think it defies housework as women's work without necessarily saying so.
It reminds me of a friend's Facebook post I saw a few months back. Her husband had cooked dinner and cleaned up afterwards 'without being asked' she took a picture of her wonderfully clean kitchen and her stat us basically celebrated the fact that he had cooked and cleaned, not her.
They both work. Why was she celebrating the fact that he'd made fair contribution?
Why do women go on treating mens contributions as something to be celebrated? They're not helping the case for equality and it saddens and maddens me so much.

"because women are judged on how their houses look in a way that men aren't and so they care more."

^^ this

LOL.
Do you understand the meaning of the word shame?

Firstly, someone has to feel it for it to exist. Seeing as how she has no clue that I'm talking about her, she can't feel shame.

Secondly, I don't judge her for not washing her mug. I judge her for not bothering to leave her desk in a decent, reasonable condition for someone else who may come along to use it.

And if she were male, I would also judge her to be an inconsiderate person. It's not that big a deal - I've said on a scale of 1 to 10 it's about 1 for me, but I can look at it and objectively see that it's inconsiderate because she has been asked not to do it on several occasions by different managers.

So I'm not judging her for not conforming to socially constructed feminine norms. I'm judging her for doing something that she has been asked not to do on several different occasions. It could equally be something like moving someone's chair and not bothering to put it back each time - it's not about tidiness, it's about consideration for other people.

How would you characterise behaviour where someone does something over and over again, that they know distresses the person they share space with?

Still haven't had that one answered...

•AskBasil* you judged Mug Woman & shamed her in the whole office for not washing her mug as much as you think she should.

Can I just be clear, I was talking about the men in IceCreamSaturday house, that don't care about living in a pigsty. As she has clearly said, they think she's fussing over nothing.

I don't believe all men do.

I think there are many factors as to why women end up the default.

I also disagree that men don't like living in filth, obviously people are individuals and some don't mind just as some women don't mind but on the whole, most people want to live in comfort. What your idea of comfort is, varies from person to person, but filth isn't most people's idea of comfort.

What I do think many men are prepared to do, is live in a mess temporarily because they know that eventually, the woman they live with will crack and clean it up a) because women are generally socialised to be more safety and hygiene-conscious than men and so they care more and b) because women are judged on how their houses look in a way that men aren't and so they care more. At a gut level possibly without being conscious of it, men know this. They know that they aren't held responsible for how their homes look, so they don't feel much ownership of the task of keeping it clean and presentable. Their cars on the other hand...

What do you mean by this thread being used to judge women who don't conform to societal expectations whattheseithakasmean? I haven't seen much judgement of women who like squalor; no-one has said it's a bad thing afair. While the OP is told that she must be dissatisfied because her standards are too high, even though none of us know what her standards are like.

Whatthese, you've lost me a bit there. I don't see how I've shamed or judged women. I don't think anyone should live in stinking filthy squalor, men or women. If I am making any judgement then I am doing it equally. I think it is an entirely reasonable societal expectation for men and women not to live in squalor. Do you really think there are no minimum standards?

Micah, if I 'went out and left them to it', they just wouldn't do it would they? Because it doesn't bother them. I would simply come home to it.

I agree with i leave.

I dont think it's that men don't mind living in filth- i know plenty of blokes in house shares or live on their own and manage the domestic chores fine. It seems to be when they move in with a wife, or have children, that suddenly they slip into gender roles.

I think it's as simple as they don't see it as their job. Part of it is women enable by doing it in the first place- a pp got up and did the housework while the men stayed in bed. Why? Why not go out, leave them to it?

Dh and i compromise by doing the things we're good at. He irons, sorts bins, hoovers round. I wash up and do laundry.

*Carried on going down

Don't know where house came from

IceCreamSaturday

In your case, yes I completely agree, it that the men don't care if they live in a pigsty.

I would suppose that many men 'don't care if they live in filth "

And yes I believe it is down to the way children are brought up in society as a whole. Boys in general are not brought up to think about it. Taking role models from family and indicators from media also.

Girls first role model is the there mum and then backed up by what they see around them.

If through us evolving through the decades still involves woman shaking of that role. It's a long process. I also feel that all around us media has gone slightly backwards in this too. Adverts films ect.

I watched the back for the weekend on tv, the family going through the decades.
It was clear that as society evolved, the daughter was given more freedom, the boy always had freedom and carried on getting more.

The mother got more freedom but was given labour saving devices to accommodate her freedom.

Although the daughter wasn't expected to walk in the mothers foot steps, as a role model the mother was still the one using the labour saving devices. So the cues are there from an early age. Then backed up by what is seen in media.

The mother in RL was the breadwinner and dh was the one who did the majority of the domestics. Whilst the mum did this TV show she found it very depressing.

When you look at how old she was, and when she grew up 80s teen, properly when the expectations on sex roles where being implemented at its height, in the 80s 90s

Programs and adverts reflected that, not massively but enough.

I remember one advert I hated. But looking back it was an indicator to society to normalise men who cleaned the house. The advert with a man being responsible for the cleaning of the house, ran for years. Other cleaning adverts were aimed at the family as a whole.

But now I only ever see women in cleaning adverts. Other then civit bang. But it's a very shouty bloke selling in a very masculine way, and only about the really big job dirt that could be masculine.

Mr muslce now, although originally a weedy man in under pants (which properly didn't do much good in making it seem OK for normal non weedy men to do the cleaning) but now Mr muslce is a muslcly cartoon guy giving the woman the products to do her job with.

Same with the kitchen towel advert , some bloke pops up to give the woman a kitchen roll to do her job with.

These are all indicators to girls to think about the cleaning, but boys will remain oblivious to them, or see it as the womans place to do it.

Advertising proberly changed because they were moving with the times in the beginning, and it's wasn't PC to in imply only women did it.

But as more actual research was being collected and used, it showed that the majority of women were still responsible for the cleaning. So the advert companies chose there target market to sell their products too.

I wonder though if the advertisers had continued to market to men and women, whether over time that that majority of women cleaning would have carried on going house

I think if comes down to- men don't mind living in filthy squalor. Women do mind.

Apart from me and Mug Woman - but I have always known I wasn't a 'real woman' Great that a feminist thread is used to judge & shame women who don't/won't conform to societal expectations.

Great thread. I think if comes down to- men don't mind living in filthy squalor. Women do mind. Whether that's societal expectations and conditioning, well maybe. I had a total screaming meltdown yesterday when I was doing all the housework while three adult men in this house were still in bed at 11am. After I had worked all hours this week. It's not that they expect me to do it. They wouldn't care if it wasn't done. But I care so i have to do it don't i? I don't mean the odd mug. I'm talking stinking overflowing bins and bathroom mess. And rotting food clogging up the kitchen sink. And rotten stinking food in the fridge. They think I'm deranged and need to chill. I think they are fucking lazy and I just want to run away. Those suggesting compromise, please tell me how.

I think we all respond differently to different things. For me, poetry is powerful, and something I read as a young woman by a Scottish feminist stayed with me and very much helped me define my relationships with the men I shared houses with. American sitcoms, not so much. But we would be a dull world if we all liked the same things.

But without any reference at all to man and house.

It completely invisbilises men's role in that societal perception of women's role vis a vis home, domestic labour etc.

But it's a poem, not a sociological tract, so fine. But I don't think it helps the OP much in terms of exploring her problem. Her problem isn't with housework per se, it's with the attitude to it, of the other adult she lives with.

I think the exploration of the trapping of women into roles “not-me against sociology” includes the role of society in the fictional roles assigned to women and the impact on the love for the partner is also there. I would say the very essence of the poem is challenging the relationship of woman and house,.

See what's missing for me in that poem, is any idea that anyone else apart from the female narrator is responsible for the house.

Which is fine if she's the only adult in the house, but if there's another adult there, what is their role?

Do they neglect the house too? Do they get the same negative response from the wider world when they do? Do they feel this burden and throw it off, the way she does?

I have a feeling the answer is no, because it's not their problem. The poem seems to be saying to me, that she recognises it's her problem and is rejecting it, but it feels fundamentally conservative to me because there's no challenge to the idea that it's her burden. Rejecting it is one way of dealing with it, but it doesn't fundamentally challenge the notion that the problem belongs to her.

That is interesting that your initial response was anger - it is a powerful poem and certainly uses female archetypes, but I think it subverts and deconstructs rather than celebrates the idealised concepts of womanhood. It recognises women's strength but also the timeless burden of responsibility for 'the house' and all that means. The last line is breathtaking and is a clear statement that as a woman, the poet has chosen break free, while recognising the consequences - the poet will not be the sacrificial sainted woman. That is what caught me as a young woman (and now as far older one). That is my interpretation, yours is just as valid, of course, and I may see it differently myself at different times. The language is rich and will take many different readings.

I have a reaction to the poem, and it's a kind of anger I think - perhaps I'm not understanding what she's trying to say, because I don't enjoy it at all.

I hate this worshipping the woman of the house in her domain as the heart and roots of a family. It feels like a backhanded compliment, like praise designed to make me be satisfied with that. Like that is my place.

It bloody isn't. I am a fully fledged human being not some idealised concept on a pedestal, not some romanticisation of the feminine in a kitchen - I see no reason why my feelings and responsibilities around our home should be any different to DPs.